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Why there are a lack of tanks

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Why there are a lack of tanks

MFollin's Avatar

06.17.2013 , 02:49 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by RiChess View Post
That and add in the fact that tank is the only role that requires a massively different gear set to function between roles. I know that's why I haven't fully committed to tanking on my pt/sin/jugg, tanking is fun and all but I "have" to mix it up or I lose interest in the class.

I don't know that there is any way around that other than to do something like give a 75% discount on DPS gear if you have a full tanking set. Not that it would be fair to the dps/healer classes though....
Well, then why not give a discount on the tank gear? Current DPS-geared potential tanks wouldn't be affected by your idea anyway, so I doubt we'd see much of a change.

Docmal's Avatar

06.17.2013 , 04:40 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Leafy_Bug View Post
I have tanked all content and my answer as to why there are a lack of tanks can be found below:

1. Tanking drops in HM FPS are very rare. I ran 10 fps in one day as soon as 2.0 hit and I had nothing.

2. There is not incentive for me to join the group finder as a tank. With the abundance of DPS, why isnt there a system that rewards tanks? A drop that guarantees a tanking piece at the end of the FP?

3. I go in a flashpoint in BIS underworld and I pull the room, fight for aggro hold all on me, play the piano with my shadow and what does the healer do? He does damage, its good, I can heal myself, i got medpacks and cooldowns.

4. People do not respect the tactics and what needs to be attacked first. I do not go into the group finder to fight for aggro and compete with the DPS who attack other targets than what I tank.

5. I spend millions of credits / hours in my tank to have worse gear tanks perform better. So why should I continue to use my tank?
1.) It has an equal chance of dropping as any other spec's piece
2.) The incentive is an insta pop.
3.) But look what YOU did... It was awesome.
4.) The dps should not necessarily be attacking what you do... they should be killing weak to strong.

I love tanking in this game. I have one of each tank class and I play them all regularly in fp and ops. Sometimes I view my pug group mates as challenges instead of helpers. Crappy groupmates are just another challenge to overcome.

StefanInter's Avatar

06.17.2013 , 04:46 PM | #23
Tanking is not fun in pug groups, tanking is fun with a group of friends/guildies. Hence most tanks avoid pugs

ArchArcher's Avatar

06.17.2013 , 04:48 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
And, yet, somehow, very few DPS manage to do this *very* simple thing.

I honestly think that misbehaving DPS are one of the big reasons why there are fewer tanks than there would be otherwise. DPS using the wrong kill order or splitting DPS on elite+ targets is *absurdly frustrating*. It probably doesn't help that tanks also have to put their trust in healers: if a healer is bad, a tank is going to faceplant, regardless of their gear. Tanking is a more complex role than healing or DPSing that is *forced* to place a lot of trust in the other players of the group not being idiots. When they *are* idiots, a tank's life is made incredibly frustrating (especially since most DPS will blame you for losing threat when the real reason is their inability to use proper focus DPS and target priority).
The master has spoken.

This is horrible tbh, as Kitru said, we as tanks have to place our trust to others so we can survive and yet if THE TANK fails (for a reason or the other) the whole group dies. And when that happends people quickly blame the tank even though tanks performance is directley a reflect how the 2x dps & healer handels themselfs.

So what happends; good tanks only play with confirmed good players / with their guilds. And when they are not tanking, they are logged in with their alt char (dps / heal). Bottom line, no public tanks.

Only way to fix things around is BW creating a hardcore FP training course where a player has to play as all 3 roles and complete the training with fixed and strict parameters and only after this training course you could queue for FP's. But that's too much to ask for, so how about giving FP tanks a guranteed gear drop (good gear raiting) where the gear piece won't even show on the loot list. The tank(s) simply get's it directley, no loot ninja possibilities. I can suffer the wipes and the drama if I know I will get a guranteed *random* gear piece to me that no ninja can steal from me.

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar

06.17.2013 , 07:40 PM | #25
The way comms work does not help. All a tank can get is 4 armourings (belt, bracer, non piece and OH, guess Guardians could get 2 more if they ignore their 4pc)

DPS and healers can at least farm BiS betl/bracer for mods. Tanks can only get B mods.

I think I did about 3 weeks of FPs on each of my tanks, got all the comms I needed and stopped. No reason at all to do them, unless helping out a guildie.

I don't even know if Bastion/Bulwark enhancements drop but rather than havin such a random chance I can run ops where I know which pieces have them.
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Kitru's Avatar

06.17.2013 , 07:54 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Docmal View Post
1.) It has an equal chance of dropping as any other spec's piece
That's actually a bit of a fallacy. While there is an equal chance of any single piece of gear for a class dropping (generally, there are 3-4 options: 1-2 DPS options, 1 potential healer option, 1 potential tank option), the chance of that piece of gear being useful for the spec in question is disproportionately against tanks for a very simple reason: most healer and DPS gear is largely interchangeable.

The *only* difference between a piece of gear explicitly intended for DPS or heals is that the DPS gear will (potentially) have accuracy on it while the healer gear will (potentially) have alacrity on it. This is even *less* important for moddable gear since you can just yank out the worthless acc/alac enhancement and replace it with whatever you need/want. The only gear where you can't do this and either have to eat the worthless secondary stat or pass it over is implants and ear piece. For *everything else*, DPS and healer gear is either *entirely* interchangeable (if there isn't any acc/alac on it) or is just *mostly* interchangeable.

Tank gear, on the other hand, is the exact *opposite*. The only thing a tank can salvage out of a piece of DPS or healer gear is the armoring. Non-tank ears and implants are entirely worthless to a tank.

As such, it's not entirely true that a piece of gear useful to a tank has the same chance as something useful for a DPS or healer to drop. Assuming you actually *get* the drop to be something appropriate for your class, tanks have a 1 in 3-4 chance of getting something that is even remotely useful to them whereas DPS and healers have the same chance of *not* getting something useful. It's for *this* reason that tanks have a harder time getting geared up (of course, the fact that tank commendation gear seems to be designed to be explicitly *worse* for said tanks than DPS/healer commendation gear *also* hurts): probability is *not* in their favor.

Gearing up my VG tank, I've run at least 20 FPs, killing both the bonus boss as well as the end boss. This constitutes at least 40 chances to get gear. I've gotten all of *5* pieces of tank gear to drop for me. And, sad but true, that's *better than average*. Unless you run with groups comprised of only a single base class, you're going to normally have a 25-33% chance of getting a piece of gear to drop for you. At best, you can expect to get one tank drop out of 9 times (1/3rd chance of class drop, 1/3rd chance of spec drop). At worst, on average, you can expect closer to one out of 16 (1/4tf chance of class drop, 1/4th chance of spec drop).

So, the next time you claim that tanks have the same chance of getting a piece of useful gear as anyone else in the group they're running with, I recommend you stick it up your tailpipe and smoke it. Unless you're running with people entirely comprised of your own class, you're going to have an explicitly and substantially *worse* chance of getting a piece of gear.
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Kitru's Avatar

06.17.2013 , 07:57 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
I don't even know if Bastion/Bulwark enhancements drop but rather than havin such a random chance I can run ops where I know which pieces have them.
They do, but only on token and content drop gear (so you have to run content *and* get lucky with the drop table). The commendation gear never has decent enhancements.
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Hockaday's Avatar

06.17.2013 , 08:57 PM | #28
There are a lack of tanks in the GF queue because they lowered our gear drop rate dramatically. Seriously, go play a level 50 hm then a 55. (well, you know what I mean...extensively) On all my tanks, the drop rate is so low in 55s. The only things -to- drop are generally belt and bracers.

Instead of giving us incentives to queue more, they made it worse to queue at all.

Edit: Would like to mention, as the only Inquis (and now warrior, because thanks devs for wrecking a class), I get dps loot to drop. Dps -and- healer loot. I've now started needing n it.
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Anosa's Avatar

06.17.2013 , 09:03 PM | #29
I think the main reason is tanking doesnt work well for PVP unless you have a solid group... and in PVE the mechanics for tanking are not attractive to many.

drtnap's Avatar

06.18.2013 , 05:02 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Anosa View Post
and in PVE the mechanics for tanking are not attractive to many.
This is my point, tanking in pve makes you a plaything for even weak mobs, and grabbing and keeping aggro is a pain in the ***.
Also there were already a lack of tanks queing for hmfp at 50.
Then devs nerfed the **** out of tanks AND buffed the crap out of dps and heals on the way to 55.
Why would i want to run on my underpowered totally dependant tank when i can be on an overpowered self sufficient healer or commando?
And to be clear i define power in tanking as the ability to resist damage and to grab and keep aggro.
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