ETA on Advanced Class change?

Does that mean that you are in favor of BW selling the latest raid gear on the CM? What about selling instant max level characters on the CM?

These would both bring in very large amounts of cash to BW, and that is after all, the only thing that matters, right?

(emphasis added by me)

I don't disagree with this statement. Of course they would. This is EA we're talking about.

BUT, "making more money by making a worse game" is a bad thing for the players, savvy?

It is also indicative of a lack of creativity. For every idea that would make money by making a worse game, there is an idea that will make more money by making a better game.

If the ONLY reason to add a feature is that it will make more money, that is lazy and sloppy and needs a little more care an attention on the part of the person who wants it to figure out how it can make the game better, too.

Most of the arguments against implementing an Advanced Class change boil down to "I don't like it so it shouldn't be done" and are backed up by nebulous "what if's" that have no basis in reality.

Most players (myself included) have already leveled up one of each advanced class. Of the 8 characters I have, 4 are Sith and 4 are republic and the AC's are all different. This allows me to play all 8 AC's and all 8 story lines.

I still have a main character, however. And quite frankly should I ever wish to change from Commando to Vanguard I would like to have the option.

Gearing changes aren't a valid reason why this shouldn't happen, since I already go through gearing changes when i respec from Combat Medic to Gunnery. I have two complete sets for each spec because I need Accuracy as a Gunnery Commando but not as a Combat Medic. Rotations between the two specs are completely different as well, so the argument that people would have to learn new mechanics is also moot since we already do that just by changing specs.

If people believe this would lead to mad rushes to FotM builds there are a few simple things that could be done to restrict such moves. The first would be to have a gate that is both purchasable via the CM and achievable in game similar to how races are gated per class. The second would be to restrict how often this can be done. The third is to make sure that FotM specs never happen (but since FotM only really affects PvP and both sides would be doing it, it would balance out anyway) through proper balancing.

I think most of the people whining about this as being "bad for the game" are just whining to be contrary since not one of their arguments stands on its merits.

The majority of the arguments for wanting class changes boil down to either "my class got nerfed and now I want to play the OP class, but I'm too lazy to level a character of the OP class" or " I want to level easy mode and then change my class at endgame". Neither one of those has any merits.

You mention putting restrictions on class changes to keep the FOTM jumping down. We have restrictions now on class changes. Restrictions that EACH AND EVERY player is made aware of multiple times and each and every player has to click multiple confirmation boxes to acknowledge that they are aware of the restrictions on class changing, and that they are certain that they are selecting the class they want. The existing restrictions are that you cannot change your class, that your choice of AC is PERMANENT and cannot be undone. How well are those restrictions working out? We still cannot change class, but here we are in yet another thread full of people clamoring for those restrictions they acknowledged to be lifted.

It takes a modicum of time and effort to level a character to max level. It becomes even quicker with double XP weekends. If you want that vanguard, you already have the means to have one. You simply have to level one.

Leave it as it is. We do not need to give the mouse his cookie.

Easy mode? Seriously, that's the best you have? No Advanced class is easier or harder than any other to level, so that argument fails. And class balance hasn't been too awful in SWTOR compared to other games making the first part of that just silly. Especially since I've yet to see an "OP" advanced class in this game. Most failures have been because of bugs, not because a class is more powerful than another...except in PvP which is always a bad part of a game to base class balance around, let alone make restrictions to the game.

And your insistence on the whole "once you make a decision it's done" thing is just sad. Many things are changed in MMO's and this one is and should be no different than all the other changes made in this game. It doesn't hurt anything or anyone and if you don't like it, don't do it but don't base your objections around some poor excuse like "you agreed to it, that's all that should be said about it". It's that kind of narrow minded attitude that makes most game forums such a crapfest.

None of your objections have merit, none of your arguments make sense. Changes are part and parcel of the ever evolving world of MMO's and making this change does not affect anyone in a negative manner but can affect others positively. Were there to be some downside to allowing AC, I'd be the first in line to object to it but not one argument made against it has shown anything that negatively affect the player base.

You can dismiss the logical, well thought out and reasonably presented arguments against allowing class changes because they do not mesh with what you want, if you wish.

It is far easier to level as a smash monkey marauder than even a DPS juggernaut, but a marauder cannot tank. So we have people who want to level as a smash monkey marauder then change class to tank for their guild in end game.

Those against allowing class changes have pointed out time and time again exactly how allowing class changes affects everyone and not just those who want the easy route of class changes rather than putting even a modicum of effort into actually leveling the class they want.

Well, I have to agree with that.

I've leveled as both, and they were both easy. And a DPS Jugg is just as easy as a DPS Marauder and since you can respec inside Jugg to DPS then change to Tank at any time, your argument once again fails since we can already change easily inside of an AC, changing AC wouldn't make any difference either way.

Your "modicum of effort" discounts the time constraints many people face in their daily lives. Besides which, going through the Story line a second time is pretty boring (I am doing so now and it's just a grind at this point). There is nothing gained by making people create two characters of the same story arc, while allowing people AC gives them flexibility in their game play and the ability to enjoy all the aspects of their class without the tedious boredom of leveling another character from scratch.

None of the arguments against AC change have pointed out anything that makes AC change bad. The only arguments are narrow minded and false in their claims based on groundless suppositions.

But it is useless if you look at the alternative to AC change as reroll...the former character then ceases to exist.

In other words, looking at both with a control...

Control remains as it is, and is still played. The positives and negatives of this option are obvious and will not be reiterated here.

The reroll option allows the prior character to either languish or be deleted, either way rendering all achievements, armor, crafting levels, titles, etc useless and impotent. That character also takes up room in the database though it is not being played.

This option removes any potential AC change damage to the game, but inserts any potential problem that is caused by ignoring or deleting certain classes for multiple reasons if those reasons are common.

The AC change, early or late (with varying degrees of impact on the game) allows the character to assume a new role in the game. Though titles, achievements, crafting levels, etc. may be saved it is likely that some things like armor may not be compatible. There are also game impact concerns depending on when the change is allowed.

An early change would likely have close to no effect on the game. The player would have likely have chosen that AC anyway, they are not "stuck" in a lousy AC by their perspective or forced to delete and reroll the AC (both undesirable options probably). Most folks probably reroll but suffer negative feelings about the game and the AC as a result since they are forced to replay content they just recently experienced. This avoids that scenario with few negative effects.

A late change would have obvious negative effects on the game, though the level of negative impact is debatable. The benefits remain as mentioned above, but there is room for abuse, both in FOTM and easy leveling (though that already exists in some form with free respecs...how many folks actualy level a healing spec sorc as such? Most switch at max level over to the healing spec I would expect.) as well as potential class under-representation.


The dynamics and particulars of the pro and con discussion....

Debating over whether or not AC's are actual classes is generally unimportant to the matter at hand, since this is not a matter of "what is right" or "lazy players do this"/"hardcore players want all to suffer". These types of arguments are ludicrous and baseless.

Claiming players that want this change are lazy is a contemptuous argument that only demonstrates a lack of intellect. This type of generalization based on a distaste of the option is similar to any other blanket judgement, such as racial observations or judgements that simply demonstrates a complete lack of understanding as to why this may be appealing to players in a general way.

A desire for convenience in a game does not translate automatically into laziness, and plenty of folks can be rather lazy in real life despite playing a game. It demonstrates a desire to be entertained as opposed to challenged, which some folks find punitive in gaming. Other folks find challenge as entertainment, and both viewpoints are valid and can coexist without opposing each other.

The trick is to find balance. The question is whether or not this option would hurt one playstyle for the sake of another, which is generally a bad idea.

Any discussion outside of the potential negative or positive impact on the game as a result of allowing AC change, early or late, is at best posturing and meaningless, at worst combative and predatory.

Far too much information from the very devs that have developed and maintain this title has been presented in this thread to shoot holes in the faulty logic that both the pro and con sides demonstrate in the pedantic "are AC's a class" argument.

Both the pro and con side with respect to this argument simply do not have a convincing or accurate argument...the information provided by Bioware is contradictory and confusing at best. It is most certainly unclear. That much is beyond debate. Cherry-picking different quotes or changing the meaning of certain public statements just makes the arguments more and more ludicrous as time passes.

The argument is NOT whether or not AC is a class. The argument is whether or not this kind of change would be good or bad for the game. That is the ONLY argument that has any kind of validity.

Nuff said.

Can you name one other game that allows a PERMANENT class choice to be undone and players can change class wily nilly? Can you switch from a rogue (melee DPS with stealth ability AKA assassin) to a priest (ranged DPS/heals AKA sorcerer)?

Limited play time is not a valid reason for allowing class changes. There is no reason why anyone NEEDS that new class in two days. It's actually likely to be less /played time to reach max level if the leveling process is spread out over a couple of weeks, due to rested xp.

My own play time is limited due to real life issues. Do you see me here clamoring to be able to change my assassins class to sorcerer?

What is gained by not allowing class changes? The players gain the satisfaction of actually putting some effort into leveling that new character, and not taking the easy, no effort route. Bw gains the extra time the player spends leveling that character.