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Dread Guards Nightmare overtuned


WillBenet's Avatar


WillBenet
06.12.2013 , 04:32 PM | #71
KBN, let me start by saying that I have a lot of respect for you and what you do. And at no point in this post am I claiming to be anything close to a mathematician, but from what I can see, you're looking at the plainest, most simplistic version of the #s for this fight. For instance, the Legionnaires will spawn at least 4-5 times in a successful kill, you have moments of dps lost when you are being Strangulated, or have to stop cast to interrupt the aforementioned strangulate. Or if a melee receives a doom, what kind of effective dps can a Sin/Shadow do while having to run through 6 green circles? You also make the assumption that both of your tanks are assassins with resolve stims/ attack adrenals and therefore the tanks can be expected to provide 1200 dps each, but as you've heard from multiple sources, the healing is too tight to afford this luxury, and more realistically, your dps will be at about 900-1k without the stim/adrenal.

I personally am in the camp that the fight is THEORETICALLY doable. But it would require the worlds most flawless run to do so and the margin is so small that you might as well call the fight impossible. If we take the 4 BEST parses ever from off of Torparse in hardmode, which is ~3k dps. Then we can deduct 300-350 dps of that as AOE, considering that those parses include 2 lethality operatives and 2 Sorc/sage's which have a Death Field and chain lightning causing splash damage to the other 2. I would then assume about 50-100 dps lost due to the changes from HM to NiM (I base this off my personal experience in there today). This puts the BEST possible dps at about 2500-2600 each.

In our # crunching, we found that the DPS requirement is 12,400 damage every second of the fight. If you assume both tanks to be at 900, and all the dps at 2550, you come out at 12,000 dps coming from these sources. Healers can make up a bit of that, but this still means that you need literally the best recorded DPS all in the same raid together to down this boss. The issue we're running into is not that we aren't capable of pulling the flat #s required to kill the boss, it's just that the changes to the fight have made it impossible to have the uptime and effective dps to make the enrage.

Those of us in Tempest are encouraged by the difficulty of these encounters. I personally hope that it doesn't get nerfed, let's see what the SWTOR community is really made of on this one.

Donttazeme - Officer of <Tempest> - POT5

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
06.12.2013 , 04:32 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
If you're enraging at 40%, then yes you're correct, you're missing 399 DPS from all 4 DPS assuming that your tanks can't improve *at all*. Let's go with that assumptionů

By the exact same math which makes the 400 DPS determination, your damage dealers are (on average) parsing 1972 effective DPS. We can tone that down a bit if we assume the tanks are only pulling 1k a piece, and so we'll generously assume that you're parsing 2072. This is what I mean when I say that the fight is doable.
Your numbers are broken, and you're dumb. We are all parsing at 2400-2600. We are still hitting enrage in numbers that aren't even fathomable. By the token of our parses alone, you are wrong. It doesn't get any more simple than that. Do the fight, then comment on the numbers. Nothing like good old fashioned.

All of my calculations are made on theorycrafted math, not true, parsed, hard numbers. Whether or not we pull that out or do more, or less, whatever. It's what we have to go off of for showing improvements we need to do in order to kill the boss. We've done it before for other DPS walls we've hit, and we've always known the exact point we have to break in order to down the boss. We cleared to DMS in 63's, upgraded our gear, still hit enrage, geared on alts and legacy'd gear, and we beat the boss after a 5 second enrage. When you're good at something, you don't need exact numbers, you can feel it to a certain degree. Between all of the streams I've watched, all of the other elite level players I've talked with, we're all seeing and feeling the same thing. What isn't theorycrafted is our ability to feel the fights, to know where theory doesn't mesh with in game play. Your numbers can say whatever you want them to say, it's not the way the fight works. Go do it, and report back to us on how your numbers worked out.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

bigheadbrandon's Avatar


bigheadbrandon
06.12.2013 , 04:32 PM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
drives me nuts because everything about this fight is perfect except the enrage timer.
this is pretty much what everyone who has done the fight is saying

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
06.12.2013 , 04:34 PM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
I am happy with the mechanics and challenges of this fight. the problem is BW obviously didnt test p3 of the fight after their fixes. The enrage timer needs to be addressed. I'm not saying to add an insane amount of time to it or to lower boss hps etc. I'm saying make it within the realm of possiblity. The math doesn't add up at all the other guy throwing out arbitrary numbers of % dps loss scaling for nightmare is plain wrong he needs to go inside and try it. I don't expect nightmare modes to be cleared within the first day, but this fight right now is a complete impossiblity. It would take a month of farming bracers/random drops in main and alt raids to get your mods/enhancements to the level required to even come close to this enrage timer.
Well, I'll be home in a couple of hours and I'm sure I'll be wiping along with the rest of you, and I'll get a feel for it myself

But I find it silly for anyone to claim "mathematical impossibility" on the first day.

Solar_Breeze's Avatar


Solar_Breeze
06.12.2013 , 04:39 PM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by mastirkal View Post
We want harder mechanics, not impossible enrage times. Enrage times are the lazy programmers failure program. Why make a difficult puzzle that takes skill when they can just add 500k HP and lower te enrage by 30 seconds.
Increase the enrage by 10 seconds each week until someone clears it sure - however don't nerf it so people can have instant gratification rather than trying something hard.

Ansalem's Avatar


Ansalem
06.12.2013 , 04:42 PM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Well, I'll be home in a couple of hours and I'm sure I'll be wiping along with the rest of you, and I'll get a feel for it myself

But I find it silly for anyone to claim "mathematical impossibility" on the first day.
yeah we are taking a break and returning tonight.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
06.12.2013 , 04:54 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by mastirkal View Post
We want harder mechanics, not impossible enrage times. Enrage times are the lazy programmers failure program. Why make a difficult puzzle that takes skill when they can just add 500k HP and lower te enrage by 30 seconds.
There is skill involved in reducing dps downtime.

I tend to pull more on an ops dummy than I can in a real fight, but that is largely due to me being sloppy during the actual fights, and the fact that I can be sloppy and we STILL beat the enrage timer.

My first HM Styrak we enraged at 60%. The second time at 40%. Eventually we beat him, and with no additional gear. There was 60% worth of boss hp tied up in not playing smart.

If this fight is possible with perfect execution and absolute max dps at every moment, then I think it would be a pretty great fight to finally beat.

FridgeLM's Avatar


FridgeLM
06.12.2013 , 04:59 PM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
There is skill involved in reducing dps downtime.

I tend to pull more on an ops dummy than I can in a real fight, but that is largely due to me being sloppy during the actual fights, and the fact that I can be sloppy and we STILL beat the enrage timer.

My first HM Styrak we enraged at 60%. The second time at 40%. Eventually we beat him, and with no additional gear. There was 60% worth of boss hp tied up in not playing smart.

If this fight is possible with perfect execution and absolute max dps at every moment, then I think it would be a pretty great fight to finally beat.
I assure you, you are not telling us neckbeards anything revolutionary.

Here's the issue: We're playing as close to ideal as can reasonably be expected and nobody is within shouting distance of beating the enrage. Not one guild who logged on when servers went up has been able to complete this fight, and it's because the enrage timer is too short.

We're not missing mechanics, and we're squeezing as much dps out of our raiders as possible. It isn't enough because the fight is mathematically impossible as it exists right now.

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
06.12.2013 , 04:59 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Well, I'll be home in a couple of hours and I'm sure I'll be wiping along with the rest of you, and I'll get a feel for it myself

But I find it silly for anyone to claim "mathematical impossibility" on the first day.
I hate saying impossible. There's either something you are willing to put in all for and accomplish, something you are willing to put in all but come up short for, or things you aren't willing to give your all. Digital things are the only place this rule doesn't apply. I still don't like saying "impossible" in games. People use it as a crutch when they don't think they can before they give it a solid effort. Right now we're discussing if it's possible to do in 16man NiM, which we're saying is unreasonable into not doable. If we got within the best 16man pull % in our 8man, there wouldn't be a discussion on if it was impossible or not, we'd either have killed it by now or we'd still be in there. We weren't even in the realm of possibility with theoretical added burn times, and in the few flawless runs I've watched no one has gotten close to possible. Everyone in this thread who has been in there is saying the Same. Exact. Thing. Everyone who has not been in there is saying the Same. Exact. Thing. That should be all you need to know.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

Carlenux's Avatar


Carlenux
06.12.2013 , 05:08 PM | #80
i was wondering what u guys doing in the storm part?... your sniper seems to be avoiding dmg with the roll... your marauders taking no dmg at all being together, i see 3-4 circles overlaping, our two marauders tried undying every time, they got dmg thru it... it does 15k dmg, when taking another explotion from someone else buffing to 20k in our parse... so not sure whats going on in there lol, unless i am missing something.

On the other hand, the dps is good, i guess, the parses says u doing 2.7... but even if 2.7 when pushing boss is decent, u have two marauders (Both dpsing thru the storm somehow) parsing lower, u are leth sniper... and both tanks dpsing.... we do that strat with tanks doing 0 dps on boss to avoid dmg... we push 3rd shield at 125k... you did at 160k, that with at least 150k tank dmg there... so or your healers arent doing much, or that parse is just showing buffed numbers from corrosive grenade on 3 targets plus the orbital on all 3 at start... so i am sure that dps is not the best possible, but it does seem like a REALLY tight enrage to a super hard fight...
we did what? like 20 attempts... i remember doing 120 one day on tanks nim EC.... kephess ha, wont even count... and we were 11th world that time (we were a bit worse than now)... so if everyone became Tired at 20 attempts, meh everyone became softcore... enjoying the good old easy fights... i think all the good guilds including us, are too arrogant with our "super good group" we find a fight thats harder than expected, hit enrage, do it 10 times, its 1st day NOT EVEN at night, theres a 5 page post of everyone QQing about it... i mean come on....

IF its Overtuned, that it might seem like it is overtuned, they will fix, if not, we will have to push thru... but its not even been half day and everyone "already assumed its impossible".... give it a 2-3 days or a week, then complain why "bioware havnt responded / fixed it", people have not spend 10% of the time it was spent in NiM EC... and this seems harder actually..... u think its bugged, fine, dont try it, wait for the fix , but dont start assuming things you dont know to make Everyone believe its impossible so no one tries it lol... let the people have fun wiping 1 week to an overtuned fight after all thats what everyone wanted in pts forums right? so stop complaining, then when they fix, there will be a 20 pages post on how they "made it just too easy"... you have to pick a side here, you want it hard, or you want it easy? but dont complain and QQ about everything lol.

TL : DR stop trying to convince everyone it is or it is not impossible, really, post your thread, bioware will look at it, if its impossible they wil fix, if not, we will have to do it like this, its not been 1 complete day and everyone is already QQing on a hard fight, when they were QQing on the "easy content", if you are so good, try to push the "impossible", if not, wait for the fix, but this is at least better than the cakewalk it was in PTS even if its overtuned.
Hmaull // Carlenx // Carlenix // Pyrotec // Invinc // Hwynn