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Dread Guards Nightmare overtuned


Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
06.12.2013 , 03:41 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
This. A thousand times, this. Making the enrage tighter is a bit of a cheap way to make a fight hard, but it works. I'm delighted that BioWare has made this fight meaningfully difficult. I don't want it to be cleared on Day 1. I don't want it be cleared even on Week 1. I want to beat my head against the screen, cry tears of frustration and stay up late nights brain storming about ways to eke out just a few more DPS points.
I would be more enthused about this if I wasn't in an APAC guild where most of the raid team are over 200ms now.

If the fight's tuned this tightly, then the lost APM and false GCDs will make it genuinely impossible.
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin

WiggsMagee's Avatar


WiggsMagee
06.12.2013 , 03:42 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Can you post the HP on each boss, the HP of the adds, the hard enrage time in seconds and the approximate amount of time required to break Ciphas's bubble (being over/under on this value by a little bit doesn't have much impact on the DPS minima).

Personally, I'm really glad the enrage timer is hard. Everyone was complaining about trivial DPS checks on the PTS, so it's good to see things have been retuned. Whether or not it is truly mathematically over-tuned is still up in the air since we haven't seen numbers.

Something to consider: with a Resolve stim and DPS relics, I can get almost 1.2k DPS on my tank on Styrak. I'm almost positive I can get quite a bit more on the Dread Guard as the fight is more static and has fewer debuffs. 40% of Kel'sara really isn't that much, relatively speaking (even assuming even HP levels, 40% is equivalent to enraging at 13% on a normal boss). You may be able to eke out that much just by having your healers drop Affliction once every so often and your tanks pull more damage.
Tried it with guild tonight
Heirad has about 1.3 million health
Ciaphes has 1.7 million health
Kel'Sara about 1.4 million

Ansalem's Avatar


Ansalem
06.12.2013 , 03:43 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
I would be more enthused about this if I wasn't in an APAC guild where most of the raid team are over 200ms now.

If the fight's tuned this tightly, then the lost APM and false GCDs will make it genuinely impossible.
heh the GCD issue sucks even for the people in the timezone of the server. Having a lot of issues with the GCD especially at the start of this fight. Usually get hit with a few right out of the gate.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
06.12.2013 , 03:44 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by FridgeLM View Post
Spoken like someone who doesn't know they increased the damage output as well as the HP of this fight.

This fight is impossible given current enrage timer.
Because higher DtPS is correlated with lower DPS?

I hear what everyone on this thread is saying. I have a lot of respect for the DPS in <Death and Taxes> and <Grey Order>, so I'm well aware of the magnitude of what is going on here. What I would very much like is for you to just look at the numbers. Let's assume you can do 2.8k DPS on a dummy (and I know many of your DPS are over this mark). This fight is tuned allowing you to lose 15% of your maximum theoretical DPS due to movement/mechanics/etc. 15% is a very, very wide margin.

I'm well aware that Nightmare Mode has more movement and higher requisite raid awareness. 15%!!! You can't tell me that it's mathematically impossible when the margins are as high as they are.

I will also take this moment to point out that the technique I used to compute the DPS minima on this fight has proven to be extremely accurate on other fights with hard enrage timers (like Styrak when we were all under-geared). I'm quite confident in the conclusion that this is doable.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
06.12.2013 , 03:46 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
So what you're telling me is that you're finding the fight difficult. You're using that assertion to make an argument from authority, claiming that nothing I say is valid.

I'm sorry you're wiping. I'm sorry that your tanks aren't able to multi-task with their CDs and their high-damage attacks. The math is in an earlier post if you're interested. The fight is doable, it's just not going to fall on day 1.
The fight difficulty from a mechanics point is spot on. The healers are 100% stressed the entire fight, the tanks are living cooldown to cooldown, and everyone needs to be raid aware because one slip during the second or third phase will cause a wipe. The fight has to be perfect, regardless of HP on the bosses.

We have done this fight perfect, we have reached the third phase and seen every mechanic the fight has to offer and progressed through them. When the boss enrages halfway through it's phase, it's a numbers failure, it's as simple as that. I've never said a fight was impossible before, people said that about HM Z/T even after it was downed within 2 hours of release, people have said that about NiM Kephess even after multiple guilds first week cleared and second week titled. We've hit DPS check walls before that we lolwut'd, but there were 6 bosses to get endgame tier from that we could farm on alts. This has a pair of bracers.

Looking at our numbers and cross referenced with the guilds who have gotten to the same point, we all need ~20% more DPS to down this fight. Call it 15% because I'm sure we can pull off a 5% enrage one-shot lawlstomp race. We're not the best players in the world. We are however top 5%, arguably some of us are top 1%. We're taking off of work for this, people can laugh but it shows the level we play at. There aren't many hardcore raiding gulids who don't take off on content releases to down the new stuff, if we're not pulling it off, people who casually raid aren't going to even figure out the mechanics for weeks. Tell me how this goes when you actually zone in.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

Ansalem's Avatar


Ansalem
06.12.2013 , 03:55 PM | #56
usually when there is a tough fight in an mmo I like to say "there is no such thing as impossible, the word itself says I'm possible." but this fight in its current state is impossible. All it really needs is 1 minute added to enrage timer...hell even 45s. This is definitely nightmare worthy but they slightly overdid it with their last minute changes that they apparently didnt test phase 3 of. Tanks have to work, healers are stressed the entire fight, and dps don't have a lot of wiggle room and must pump that dps. The only problem with fight is the enrage timer. BW is taking a step in the right direction with this fight but they honestly need to test more thoroughly in house before releasing.

Bombbuster's Avatar


Bombbuster
06.12.2013 , 03:56 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
This. A thousand times, this. Making the enrage tighter is a bit of a cheap way to make a fight hard, but it works. I'm delighted that BioWare has made this fight meaningfully difficult. I don't want it to be cleared on Day 1. I don't want it be cleared even on Week 1. I want to beat my head against the screen, cry tears of frustration and stay up late nights brain storming about ways to eke out just a few more DPS points.
I'm all for a boss that isn't cleared on night one or week one, but t should be the end bosses, not the starting bosses. That way you can get gear off of the preceding bosses each week and improve your chances. Farming bracers for 8 weeks off the first boss is not going to help, nor is it good game design.
Mal: Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
ZoŽ: Big damn heroes, sir.
Mal: Ain't we just.

HoboWithAStick's Avatar


HoboWithAStick
06.12.2013 , 04:05 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Bombbuster View Post
. Farming bracers for 8 weeks off the first boss is not going to help, nor is it good game design.
Better then clearing the last raid within half a day of the servers going live then having nothing to do but gear grind a boring op for months.

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
06.12.2013 , 04:10 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by Ansalem View Post
usually when there is a tough fight in an mmo I like to say "there is no such thing as impossible, the word itself says I'm possible." but this fight in its current state is impossible. All it really needs is 1 minute added to enrage timer...hell even 45s. This is definitely nightmare worthy but they slightly overdid it with their last minute changes that they apparently didnt test phase 3 of. Tanks have to work, healers are stressed the entire fight, and dps don't have a lot of wiggle room and must pump that dps. The only problem with fight is the enrage timer. BW is taking a step in the right direction with this fight but they honestly need to test more thoroughly in house before releasing.
This. Exactly what we were saying, to the t. If we were able to break 20% before enrage I'd say it was doable, I'd switch from Watchman to Combat to get up to 2.8-2.9k DPS from 2.5-2.6 I'm at. I'm sure our healers could pull it out and we could use cooldowns during Heirad to stay alive for one perfect run without the raid heals. However, we're missing 400-500DPS from ALL 4 PLAYERS. On top of that, I"m already raid frame swapping my berserk/zen heals based on who needs raid heals, DPS or tanks. No, I'm not losing DPS by doing that, modesty aside I'm that good at the class. It's what is keeping the tanks alive at certain points. This **** is very, very tight as is. It's perfect. Minus the impossible enrage. If this was the last boss, I'd say it was absolutely perfect, with 4 other bosses to do mandatory gear farming for just like DMS HM 8man was. It's the second boss, and it's broken.

Farm bracers FTW.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
06.12.2013 , 04:15 PM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
However, we're missing 400-500DPS from ALL 4 PLAYERS.
If you're enraging at 40%, then yes you're correct, you're missing 399 DPS from all 4 DPS assuming that your tanks can't improve *at all*. Let's go with that assumptionÖ

By the exact same math which makes the 400 DPS determination, your damage dealers are (on average) parsing 1972 effective DPS. We can tone that down a bit if we assume the tanks are only pulling 1k a piece, and so we'll generously assume that you're parsing 2072. This is what I mean when I say that the fight is doable.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)