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Dread Guards Nightmare overtuned


e_nk_ay's Avatar


e_nk_ay
06.12.2013 , 03:27 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by tahoeWolverine View Post
I hear what KBN has to say, and you can tell that people are simply getting frustrated by an 8man fight requiring more than 1 day of raiding to kill. We've seen this on NiM 16 Tanks and Kephess, I've been there. Obviously I feel for all raiders in this case...when you continually wipe ~30% it's hard to see any way to get to a kill. It's chipping away though, making small changes across your entire group to find extra dps. Some guild will approach this with an open mind and outperform expectations.

For those that claim impossible, I'll ask you, how far is possible? I think you'll find that whether you say 50% or 20%, there's a guild out there that will beat your expectation.
Add 1 minute to the enrage timer.
<Death and Taxes>
Enkay - 55 Juggernaut, GM
Enque - 55 Mercenary Nkay - 55 Marauder Enkaye - 55 Assassin Enkayy - 55 Commando

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
06.12.2013 , 03:29 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by tahoeWolverine View Post
I hear what KBN has to say, and you can tell that people are simply getting frustrated by an 8man fight requiring more than 1 day of raiding to kill. We've seen this on NiM 16 Tanks and Kephess, I've been there. Obviously I feel for all raiders in this case...when you continually wipe ~30% it's hard to see any way to get to a kill. It's chipping away though, making small changes across your entire group to find extra dps. Some guild will approach this with an open mind and outperform expectations.

For those that claim impossible, I'll ask you, how far is possible? I think you'll find that whether you say 50% or 20%, there's a guild out there that will beat your expectation.
This. A thousand times, this. Making the enrage tighter is a bit of a cheap way to make a fight hard, but it works. I'm delighted that BioWare has made this fight meaningfully difficult. I don't want it to be cleared on Day 1. I don't want it be cleared even on Week 1. I want to beat my head against the screen, cry tears of frustration and stay up late nights brain storming about ways to eke out just a few more DPS points.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Streaming Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
06.12.2013 , 03:30 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Please elaborate. What is so radically different about Nightmare vs Hard that you're unable to get reliable tank DPS? I've seen the videos. I've analyzed the fights. I don't see anything that would be a significant tank concern aside from the higher damage levels (which, honestly, are a healer concern more than a tank concern).
If you haven't been in there, you have no right to be discussing anything here. Sorry dude, it's completely different than plugging in fudged math. The tanks have to focus most of their time on STAYING ALIVE, not adding in max theoretical DPS. Healers have to spend all of their time keeping people alive, they cannot waste the GCD's on keeping constant DOTs up. This isn't like HM where spreading out mitigates the Lightning to negligable damage, if you aren't at ~75% health, you run the risk of getting taken to 15% or lower which Heirad will do to you in 2 GCD's, putting high stress on the healers. This happens a minimum of twice, cooldowns only help out to the raid being at around 30% health. Healers cannot be doing anything but trying to keep up because the "keeping up" mark is having all DPS at full health and tanks at above 50%. It's not an easy thing to do.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

xZarquon's Avatar


xZarquon
06.12.2013 , 03:32 PM | #44
Personally, as was stated on the PTS, I think the fight mechanics on this fight look great. I think guilds are really annoyed by the fact that this fight is a brick wall...you can mess up zero mechanics and do extremely solid dps, and hit hard "you all die in 5 seconds" enrage with 700k HP to go. Given the mechanics nature of this fight, what I'd love to see if an increase in enrage by a 1.5-2 minutes, but decrease the time between time between red circle spawns to 1/2-2/3 of what it is now. That way it's not "you lose" if your dps isn't perfect, but more of an, "take too long and get overwhelmed" enrage.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
06.12.2013 , 03:33 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
If you haven't been in there, you have no right to be discussing anything here. Sorry dude, it's completely different than plugging in fudged math. The tanks have to focus most of their time on STAYING ALIVE, not adding in max theoretical DPS.
So what you're telling me is that you're finding the fight difficult. You're using that assertion to make an argument from authority, claiming that nothing I say is valid.

I'm sorry you're wiping. I'm sorry that your tanks aren't able to multi-task with their CDs and their high-damage attacks. The math is in an earlier post if you're interested. The fight is doable, it's just not going to fall on day 1.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Streaming Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Denchet's Avatar


Denchet
06.12.2013 , 03:34 PM | #46
Are tanks in other guilds not attacking the dps target and just tanking their dudes off to the side? That is a massive DPS loss if people are doing that.

Tanks should have almost 100% uptime on the dps target except for during the final phase when they are leeched.

namesaretough's Avatar


namesaretough
06.12.2013 , 03:34 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
If you haven't been in there, you have no right to be discussing anything here. Sorry dude, it's completely different than plugging in fudged math. The tanks have to focus most of their time on STAYING ALIVE, not adding in max theoretical DPS. Healers have to spend all of their time keeping people alive, they cannot waste the GCD's on keeping constant DOTs up. This isn't like HM where spreading out mitigates the Lightning to negligable damage, if you aren't at ~75% health, you run the risk of getting taken to 15% or lower which Heirad will do to you in 2 GCD's, putting high stress on the healers. This happens a minimum of twice, cooldowns only help out to the raid being at around 30% health. Healers cannot be doing anything but trying to keep up because the "keeping up" mark is having all DPS at full health and tanks at above 50%. It's not an easy thing to do.
So based on the, what, 3-4 guilds that have done it and posted here and their sweeping generalizations of what is possible the fight should be nerfed?

e_nk_ay's Avatar


e_nk_ay
06.12.2013 , 03:36 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
So what you're telling me is that you're finding the fight difficult. You're using that assertion to make an argument from authority, claiming that nothing I say is valid.

I'm sorry you're wiping. I'm sorry that your tanks aren't able to multi-task with their CDs and their high-damage attacks. The math is in an earlier post if you're interested. The fight is doable, it's just not going to fall on day 1.
Speaking from someone who has over a dozen World and US firsts in WoW, this fight is not possible right now.

I have beat my head against a wall, I've worked on bosses for weeks to get firsts, and I've done ridiculous strats to think outside the box. This fight right now is NOT possible given the current enrage timer. It isn't like we can get better gear, we're all BiS in full 72 with optimal augments and relics. KeyboardNinja, go in there, see it for yourself, and I promise you no one will kill this fight in its current iteration.
<Death and Taxes>
Enkay - 55 Juggernaut, GM
Enque - 55 Mercenary Nkay - 55 Marauder Enkaye - 55 Assassin Enkayy - 55 Commando

Ansalem's Avatar


Ansalem
06.12.2013 , 03:38 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
So what you're telling me is that you're finding the fight difficult. You're using that assertion to make an argument from authority, claiming that nothing I say is valid.

I'm sorry you're wiping. I'm sorry that your tanks aren't able to multi-task with their CDs and their high-damage attacks. The math is in an earlier post if you're interested. The fight is doable, it's just not going to fall on day 1.
You just don't get it until you try it with the changes. dps in HM vs nightmare is a completely different story. Nightmare involves a lot more movement and a lot more dmg done/required. A tank doing 200 more dps isnt going to come close to solving the gap in dmg required to down this.

FridgeLM's Avatar


FridgeLM
06.12.2013 , 03:39 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
So what you're telling me is that you're finding the fight difficult. You're using that assertion to make an argument from authority, claiming that nothing I say is valid.

I'm sorry you're wiping. I'm sorry that your tanks aren't able to multi-task with their CDs and their high-damage attacks. The math is in an earlier post if you're interested. The fight is doable, it's just not going to fall on day 1.
Spoken like someone who doesn't know they increased the damage output as well as the HP of this fight.

This fight is impossible given current enrage timer.