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The worst group finder raids


Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
06.09.2013 , 02:35 PM | #1
To me, that's the 'guild run' group finder, and I've been in group finder raids where we wiped on Dash'roode on 90%.

This is a raid where there's a clear majority of a guild (usually 6+) and you're obviously not part of that guild. You might be thinking you'll be on your way to an easy win, but you'll be wrong. This is because if these guys are actually good they'd be usually be doing Hard modes unless they're just really bored (have seen this happened once in all my group finder raids). If you hear these guys tell you this fight is really hard and you can't screw up, and it's not Operator IX (where no amount of uberness can carry a bad player who doesn't know how to channel), it's going to be a painful experience, because that means your guild run is basically same as a PUG as this is the only reason why any story mode encounter outside of Operator IX would require everyone on top of their games. The said guild will often make plenty of mistakes, but you can't even correct them because they have a clear majority and you don't want to risk getting kicked.

No you won't be wiping on Dash'roode at 90%, but do expect to randomly wipe on trash and have a high probability of having the group break up shortly after the weekly mob is done, leaving you in a position where it's almost impossible to finish the raid. To compound things this group is almost always good enough to clear the weekly mob (which isn't saying much), and after that you're totally stuck with them, because trying to get another group finder raiding going after you're past the point of the weekly mob is extremely difficult, as the only kind of group you're joining is likely another group that had some serious problem and needed to find replacements from group finder. In fact, looking at my various alt's lockout, wiping on Dash'roode at 90% is usuaully fine because the likely outcome is the group breaks up completely and you get to try your luck again. If you get a lockout on say Operation Chiefs or Operator IX and then the group breaks up, you may not be able to finish your raids at all.

Gnimish's Avatar


Gnimish
06.09.2013 , 02:48 PM | #2
Idk i really have found myself enjoying pug runs 80% of the time. Iv met alot of good guilds that just needed 1 more guy. My guild has 5 progression groups but i dont play enough to justify taking up a spot so i have to pug most everything. Sometimes it good. Sometimes its bad. I first invite everyone into my guilds ts. Tell them where to download it and tell them we will wait. Most bads arent bad they just dont know. I doesnt take long to teach people. Sure my tank is locked out at first boss of sv this week. But guess what their are 2 more people out there that know the first to fights of SV now. So maybe next week they will be able to help out another "bad". Iv had complete pug runs were we one shotted tfb. Iv had runs were we spent 6 hours and couldnt make it past operator 9. You never know but i still enjoy it. If you play on Harbinger. My mains are Gilgol and Mershnek. Ill run with random people anytime

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
06.09.2013 , 03:02 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Gnimish View Post
Idk i really have found myself enjoying pug runs 80% of the time. Iv met alot of good guilds that just needed 1 more guy. My guild has 5 progression groups but i dont play enough to justify taking up a spot so i have to pug most everything. Sometimes it good. Sometimes its bad. I first invite everyone into my guilds ts. Tell them where to download it and tell them we will wait. Most bads arent bad they just dont know. I doesnt take long to teach people. Sure my tank is locked out at first boss of sv this week. But guess what their are 2 more people out there that know the first to fights of SV now. So maybe next week they will be able to help out another "bad". Iv had complete pug runs were we one shotted tfb. Iv had runs were we spent 6 hours and couldnt make it past operator 9. You never know but i still enjoy it. If you play on Harbinger. My mains are Gilgol and Mershnek. Ill run with random people anytime
The difference between a gulid run and a PUG is that in the latter you can usually try to help people who are bad while in the former you have no chance of helping others if it turns out the said guild is bad, because they have a clear majority and nobody is going to be dumb enough to say like: "Hey your guild's DPS totally sucked that fight" even if it was true because the said guild has a majority. Even the most obnoxious raid hero is usually well aware that he's not going to have the majority in a PUG, and since having a lockout on a mob like Operation Chiefs makes it almost impossible to find another group, that guy will usually be forced to compromise as he is aware his prospect of finding another raid at that point is very bad.

The guilds that are truly good and just need another person will have an attitude where they're going to carry that last person no matter how bad he is (unless it's Operator IX). So they wouldn't have any high expectation from the last person and therefore have no reason to freak out over anything. The one guild run I got to that was actually good we actually ended up with only 7 people and still cleared bosses fine, and that guild never freaked out the whole time because if you're good, you should be expected to be able to pull off things like that. A lack of willingness to carry implies that you're working with PUG level players. Not saying you should expect to be carried, but working with PUG level players who you cannot give advice to (because the guild has majority) makes things even harder.

I once joined a run with 6 guys in a guild and we ran out of shield generators on Dash'roode at 50%. The 2 PUG was DPS (me and another guy). The two DPS from the guild were horribly underequipped (like 23K HP) while the 2 PUGs are like 28/30K. But of course, the guild blamed us for lack of DPS. Frankly, even if we did 0 DPS you shouldn't have Dash'roode hitting 50% when you ran out of shield generators, not to mention we can see rather clearly that it was that guild's DPS who died right away as the fight started. If you're in a PUG you can politely tell those 2 DPS with 23K that they probably aren't ready for this fight yet, but what can you do when the 2 bad DPS have majority? Well in that case it was so bad we broke up, but imagine if you're at Olok the Shadow with the same setup. You'd be pretty screwed.

JSunrider's Avatar


JSunrider
06.09.2013 , 03:19 PM | #4
I sympathize with bad GF experiences. However, you're not thinking through your options very well. If you are better off wiping on Dash'roode so your options stay open, then you're also better off getting votekicked on Dash'roode so your options stay open. There's really no downside to you speaking up and trying to get the Guild of Bads on track. If they suck and votekick you? Hurray, now you can try to hook up with a Guild of Not-Bads. If you get yourself into a situation like what you describe--locked to OpIX with bad prospects for finishing--then that's really more on you than it is on them.

I once had a hilariously bad guild votekick me from Xenoanalyst before we even started because of something like this. My only regret is that I didn't quit on them myself sooner--the writing was on the wall from the word go. Be the master of your own destiny. Fix it or cut bait and run.

chuixupu's Avatar


chuixupu
06.09.2013 , 03:32 PM | #5
I think you're making a gross generalization, probably based on 1 or 2 bad experiences. The situation you're describing does, and probably more often, happen with full pugs.

Remember, there are ultimate comms rewards for queuing up for story mode. This is the main reason why guilds will do it. Also, sometimes we're running alts, sometimes we have too many team members out of town, and we don't want to just try to pug 2 people to come in on hard mode Kephess in TFB. Of course there are certainly some guilds that are very casual and have trouble doing even the easiest content, but if you find one of those groups, just put one or more of those people in the group on ignore and try again. You aren't necessarily going to have better luck kicking the bad people in pug, people generally seem to throw the blame in all directions, sometimes the wrong ones.

Also, I can say from experience that 1 or 2 pugs can be responsible for wiping a group. without even realizing it :P

But we've carried a guy that had nothing but leveling greens and blues through all of S&V with no problems.
Wardens of Fate / Alea Iacta Est
The Tarkus Legacy ~ The Harbinger/Jedi Covenant

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
06.09.2013 , 03:54 PM | #6
This is a bigger problem with S&V than TFB. The way TFB is setup, if you can beat Operator IX you know at least you have a group of guys who are fundamentally solid on game mechanics, since there is absolutely no way you can carry a guy who doesn't know how to channel the shield. So if you get past Operator IX you have reasonable confidence that the guys you get is solid enough to beat Kephess and TFB. Maybe you fail anyway but it's not because they're bad players, because if they are you'd never have gotten past Operator IX.

In S&V the first 4 bosses are basically trivial so you really have no idea if your team is at all good until Olok the Shadow, which requires some semblance of competence to beat. Now this happens with everyone, but it's much harder to correct a bad guild than a bad PUG. In particular, what do you do if it turns out it's the DPS that are bad in the said guild? In a PUG I often run with guys who are grossly underequipped, and if we absolutely can't meet enrage timer then we obviously start replacing the weakest DPS first and that has a reasonable chance of working. Trying to replace DPS in a guild that has majority just doesn't work. Most likely they will blame the loner, and even if you have definitive proof it's their fault, you still won't win because they have the majority.

Ouside of Operator IX it's very hard for someone truly clueless to wipe the raid, simply because the truly clueless wouldn't even know what you have to do to wipe the raid. For example one time I had a guy pick up the portable shield on Dash'roode and never moved which led to an instant wipe. Was that guy clueless? No because if you're clueless you wouldn't even know there was a portable shield to pick up. I had a tank that purposely turned the tentacles to slam the DPS on TFB. Again, this isn't something you can accidentally do. Even if you just stood at a random place to tanking, the DPS will naturally move behind to avoid the slam, so it took effort to ensure the tentacle always slammed the DPS. These guys are your biggest problem, but it's way harder to correct them when they're part of the majority. You'd hear stuff like 'we always have tentacles slam DPS when we won', and sure I don't doubt that because first phase of TFB isn't even hard, but that's still a very bad idea.

HoboWithAStick's Avatar


HoboWithAStick
06.09.2013 , 05:52 PM | #7
Join a guild that can fill these raids without the need of pugs. Problem solved.

Sykomyke's Avatar


Sykomyke
06.10.2013 , 01:49 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by HoboWithAStick View Post
Join a guild that can fill these raids without the need of pugs. Problem solved.
Thanks for that insightful and well thought post Hobo. Would you like to explain anything else Captain Obvious?

Back on topic though. I agree with the thread's point. I don't necessarily think that the issue is the result of "bad guilds though". I think the problem lies in the fact that people feel *obligated* to join a guild otherwise they are deemed inferior. I left my raiding guild 2 months ago and was the best decision I ever made. I may join another guild but I'm not in any rush to do so. The reason I left was (among other things) they were accepting nearly anyone in the guild for no reason and people didn't understand basic concepts.

This same issue applies to all guilds/pugs. The basic concepts JUST AREN'T THERE. These group finder quests show a recommended gear level; and yet people are entering with level 45-50 greens/blues. I'm seeing DPS who just sit still for 10 seconds and dont do anything, or they are keyboard turners that don't know how to follow the boss by moving their mouse.

The problem with storymode operations is that no matter how "easy" they make it; it seems like there are people who are just dumber then they expected still queuing up for it.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
Sith Empire

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
06.10.2013 , 02:47 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Sykomyke View Post
Thanks for that insightful and well thought post Hobo. Would you like to explain anything else Captain Obvious?

Back on topic though. I agree with the thread's point. I don't necessarily think that the issue is the result of "bad guilds though". I think the problem lies in the fact that people feel *obligated* to join a guild otherwise they are deemed inferior. I left my raiding guild 2 months ago and was the best decision I ever made. I may join another guild but I'm not in any rush to do so. The reason I left was (among other things) they were accepting nearly anyone in the guild for no reason and people didn't understand basic concepts.

This same issue applies to all guilds/pugs. The basic concepts JUST AREN'T THERE. These group finder quests show a recommended gear level; and yet people are entering with level 45-50 greens/blues. I'm seeing DPS who just sit still for 10 seconds and dont do anything, or they are keyboard turners that don't know how to follow the boss by moving their mouse.

The problem with storymode operations is that no matter how "easy" they make it; it seems like there are people who are just dumber then they expected still queuing up for it.
If you assume that the average player isn't very good, why should the fact that you have a guildtag suddenly make you good? The group finder tends to self select toward bad players anyway, since there just isn't much point for a good player to do these raids. Now getting bad players is fine, but getting bad players who don't listen, or worse yet, have a majority, severely limits your options. If you can't tell that DPS with 23K he's the reason why you're failing the enrage timer because his guild has the majority, your options are extremely limited. Note that even if you're in a PUG full of bads, most people can usually agree on that the DPS with 23K probably should be replaced first, so at least you've some hope.

Of course people are always surprisingly bad no matter how low you set the bar, but as long as people are willing to listen it's usually salvageable. The problem is when you get guys who don't listen. I had a Madness Assassin who claim he was getting aggro on Titan probes, and I'm not even sure if that's physically possible even if you're casting Death Field the moment the adds spawned since Madness has nonexistent AE power. I'm 99.99% sure he confused Lots of Missiles with adds but of course that guy said he totally knew what he was doing. The difference is that in a PUG you can usually get rid of that guy, but not in a guild run when that guy also has the majority.

Askesis's Avatar


Askesis
06.12.2013 , 12:49 AM | #10
Ah, my first S&V GF. It was less than a week after release; I knew queuing would be a bad idea, but I did it anyway.

First thing I asked: "Has everyone done this yet?" Four or five people say "no" (a surprising turn of events in itself; not that they were new to it, but that they admitted it). A person in the group then decides that would be the perfect time to start the event (granted, it may have been a new person that was unaware that moving forward would start a boss fight).

Of course, we wipe in a terrible fashion since most people had no idea what to do. Then there was the predictable "OMG YOU GUYS **** SUCK" comments and the group broke,

Really, I blame myself. I knew queuing for a new Op would be destined to fail, but I did it anyway.


I have a few honorable mentions, but those are mostly fail players, not fail groups. The most comical had to be back in EV where we asked the tank if he knew how to tank SOA, and he confirmed he did in a "how dare you question me" attitude, and then failed to bring SOA under a pylon even once.