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Who's winning the war?


Alavastre's Avatar


Alavastre
06.03.2013 , 10:58 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by AlexDougherty View Post
Assuming you have finished chapter 3 (because the stories seem to take place at slighly different times).

Then the Republic is winning
Spoiler
Almost correct.

Spoiler
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

AGSThomas's Avatar


AGSThomas
06.03.2013 , 11:45 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Mistrunnerx View Post
Yes because World War 2 was fought for thousands of years.
Semantics
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Mistrunnerx's Avatar


Mistrunnerx
06.03.2013 , 11:58 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by AGSThomas View Post
Semantics
You do realize no one forced you to come into this thread to participate in a decent discussion. Just because you see something as pointless doesn't mean everyone else does. Just alt-f4 and quit ruining the fun for others.

Trimaxion's Avatar


Trimaxion
06.03.2013 , 12:20 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Euphrosyne View Post
While I acknowledge that the story may very well do this, because it is, after all, BW's writers' prerogative, I would like to point out that it's pretty silly for a single technological bump to be the difference between imminent defeat and turning the tide, and that such a thing has zero precedent in actual human military history for good reason.
If the nazis had got the atom bomb first you might not have been saying that (probably because we wouldn't be here but you know)


I would say the example that comes closest is probably the long bow.

Didn't win the war but it wouldn't be called the Hundred Years' War without it.

Trimaxion's Avatar


Trimaxion
06.03.2013 , 12:32 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by AGSThomas View Post
Semantics
Only it's not, it's quite a valid point if not so well elaborated on.

We know that in a few thousand years there is A republic and A jedi order.

We can't be certain at this point that that springs directly from a republic victory, the empire could just about conceivably win militarily but wind up becoming a de facto part of the republic with the leader of the empire as a president figure above the chancellor... Few thousand years on and you're back to the republic from The films.

It's difficult to create an analogy with earth based events since we know much more of the timeline and ins and outs of things, you'd have to go back to the dark ages or further to draw a parallel. If you knew the Anglo Saxons and the Normans fought for angleland but all you knew after that was that today were in England you might conclude the angles won.


The continued existence of the Jedi order would take a bit more explaining however.

Euphrosyne's Avatar


Euphrosyne
06.03.2013 , 12:36 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by zzoorrzz View Post
It didn't work out simply because it came too late and there was no time. If there would be enough time and resources (factories not mostly destroyed by Allies), just those new fighters could've made a lot of difference since we know that war in the sky was one of the biggest advantages for Allies by that time.

And this is not just fighters that will be influenced by isotope-5
That is precisely my point. Germany possessed superior technology in some ways, but its industrial inferiority and Allied military advantages in other areas meant that it could never be leveraged in a meaningful way. This suggests that it is not merely enough for a state to possess good technology; it must do something (and must be able to do something) to use it properly, and that technology must not be negated by enemy advantages in other areas.

Much like Nazi Germany, the Empire's military is reeling from serious defeats, Imperial forces have been pushed out of the major industrial areas of the galaxy, and Imperial worlds are about to be subjected to Republic attack. Hitler's Wunderwaffen did little more than kill a bunch of Londoners indiscriminately; even if we suggest that the Empire is much more capable of leveraging isotope-5 technology than Nazi Germany was of leveraging rocketry, jet engines, and superheavy armored vehicles, that still leaves a hell of a gap between "maybe managing to stall the Republic offensive in some places" and "completely turning the tide of the war".
Quote: Originally Posted by Mistrunnerx View Post
Really now? Because I seem to recall Japan surrendering after the United States created (and used) the atomic bomb. The Germans ran over the polish in WW2 because they had tanks while poland was still using calvary. And I'm pretty sure that if the Empire had the death star right now the republic wouldn't stand a chance. For you to say technology can not turn the tide of a war is just downright stupid.
Japan was doomed long before the American nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Imperial Japanese Army was badly overstretched and hemorrhaging its strength uselessly in China, Burma, and on the Pacific islands. The US Marines and Army had driven the IJA's garrisons out of countless Pacific islands and seized control of launching points within ancestral Japanese territory itself on Okinawa and Iwo Jima. The Imperial Japanese Navy was gutted in 1943 and virtually annihilated in 1944 by overwhelming American naval power and superior doctrine. American air forces were in the process of constantly pounding Japanese cities to rubble by conventional arms. And, of course, the Red Army launched its own attack on Japan at the same time as the American bombings, and shattered what was left of the Kwantung Army in Manchuria. Japan's military strength was destroyed because it tried to fight literally every single one of its neighbors, any one of which possessed numerical strength that could dwarf anything the Japanese could bring to bear. Imperial Japan's fate was decided when it went to war with the United States and the Commonwealth in December 1941; the only thing that was left to be determined was how many more people would die before the Japanese military was finally either destroyed or compelled to surrender. That was what the atomic bombs decided. They certainly did not "turn the tide" of a war that Japan might very well have won otherwise; Japan was a broken country in the summer of 1945.

For a demonstration of why Japan's military effort in the Second World War was, ultimately, not ever in a serious position to "win" any of the wars that the Japanese military enmeshed itself, even the China war, I would recommend two books: Soldiers of the Sun, by Meirion and Susie Harries, and Japan's Imperial Army, by Edward Drea. The former book has aged somewhat, but it is still reasonably accurate on many points. On the China war itself, the collection of articles in Peattie, Drea, and van de Ven (eds.), The Battle for China, is fantastic.

The "Nazi panzers against Polish cavalry" thing is a myth, pure and simple, invented by newspapermen and magazines of the time to romanticize the quixotic Polish war effort and later seized on by Nazi propaganda to demonstrate how futile Poland's fight was. It did not ever demonstrably happen. Poland's army, while it was not as modern as the Wehrmacht, possessed many light tanks and antitank weapons. The Germans actually had more cavalry units than did the Poles, and German units relied on horse transport to a remarkable extent even in the later stages of the war. Simply put, the Poles were outnumbered and outmaneuvered from a very bad strategic position at the start, and fell victim to superior German doctrine.

I would strongly advise that you read the posts you respond to more carefully, and that you have a better grounding in the subjects that you deride others as being "stupid" about.
Euphrosynē (n., Greek) - "mirth, merriment"

Mistrunnerx's Avatar


Mistrunnerx
06.03.2013 , 12:48 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Euphrosyne View Post
That is precisely my point. Germany possessed superior technology in some ways, but its industrial inferiority and Allied military advantages in other areas meant that it could never be leveraged in a meaningful way. This suggests that it is not merely enough for a state to possess good technology; it must do something (and must be able to do something) to use it properly, and that technology must not be negated by enemy advantages in other areas.

Much like Nazi Germany, the Empire's military is reeling from serious defeats, Imperial forces have been pushed out of the major industrial areas of the galaxy, and Imperial worlds are about to be subjected to Republic attack. Hitler's Wunderwaffen did little more than kill a bunch of Londoners indiscriminately; even if we suggest that the Empire is much more capable of leveraging isotope-5 technology than Nazi Germany was of leveraging rocketry, jet engines, and superheavy armored vehicles, that still leaves a hell of a gap between "maybe managing to stall the Republic offensive in some places" and "completely turning the tide of the war".

Japan was doomed long before the American nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Imperial Japanese Army was badly overstretched and hemorrhaging its strength uselessly in China, Burma, and on the Pacific islands. The US Marines and Army had driven the IJA's garrisons out of countless Pacific islands and seized control of launching points within ancestral Japanese territory itself on Okinawa and Iwo Jima. The Imperial Japanese Navy was gutted in 1943 and virtually annihilated in 1944 by overwhelming American naval power and superior doctrine. American air forces were in the process of constantly pounding Japanese cities to rubble by conventional arms. And, of course, the Red Army launched its own attack on Japan at the same time as the American bombings, and shattered what was left of the Kwantung Army in Manchuria. Japan's military strength was destroyed because it tried to fight literally every single one of its neighbors, any one of which possessed numerical strength that could dwarf anything the Japanese could bring to bear. Imperial Japan's fate was decided when it went to war with the United States and the Commonwealth in December 1941; the only thing that was left to be determined was how many more people would die before the Japanese military was finally either destroyed or compelled to surrender. That was what the atomic bombs decided. They certainly did not "turn the tide" of a war that Japan might very well have won otherwise; Japan was a broken country in the summer of 1945.

For a demonstration of why Japan's military effort in the Second World War was, ultimately, not ever in a serious position to "win" any of the wars that the Japanese military enmeshed itself, even the China war, I would recommend two books: Soldiers of the Sun, by Meirion and Susie Harries, and Japan's Imperial Army, by Edward Drea. The former book has aged somewhat, but it is still reasonably accurate on many points. On the China war itself, the collection of articles in Peattie, Drea, and van de Ven (eds.), The Battle for China, is fantastic.

The "Nazi panzers against Polish cavalry" thing is a myth, pure and simple, invented by newspapermen and magazines of the time to romanticize the quixotic Polish war effort and later seized on by Nazi propaganda to demonstrate how futile Poland's fight was. It did not ever demonstrably happen. Poland's army, while it was not as modern as the Wehrmacht, possessed many light tanks and antitank weapons. The Germans actually had more cavalry units than did the Poles, and German units relied on horse transport to a remarkable extent even in the later stages of the war. Simply put, the Poles were outnumbered and outmaneuvered from a very bad strategic position at the start, and fell victim to superior German doctrine.

I would strongly advise that you read the posts you respond to more carefully, and that you have a better grounding in the subjects that you deride others as being "stupid" about.
While yes this is true you can't sit there and tell me the war would not have gone differently if Japan or Germany had developed the Atomic Bomb and not the US. Atomic weapons were and still are a game changer.

AlexDougherty's Avatar


AlexDougherty
06.03.2013 , 01:15 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Euphrosyne View Post
That is precisely my point. Germany possessed superior technology in some ways, but its industrial inferiority and Allied military advantages in other areas meant that it could never be leveraged in a meaningful way. This suggests that it is not merely enough for a state to possess good technology; it must do something (and must be able to do something) to use it properly, and that technology must not be negated by enemy advantages in other areas.
Germany did not possess inferior industry, in fact it was famed for industrial superioty in multiple fields before, during and after the war. Germany's major weakness was it's high command, particularly it's leader, not it's ability to use scientific innovations, in fact it frequently went from concept to mass production in a matter of months. While some of these concepts introduced flaws, such as guided missiles that required the aircraft to stay in the area until it hit the target, making said aircraft vulnerable, these were the result of technological limitations that were not overcome until the 1970's.

Having said that, I do agree with most of what you said.
Peace can be found, above all passions. Through passion, I may gain strength.
Through strength, I may gain power. Through power, I may gain victory.
But for every enemy fallen, a new foe rises.
For every chain broken, new chains bind me. Only the Force can set me free.

Izorii's Avatar


Izorii
06.03.2013 , 01:39 PM | #49
Republic was winning upto Mekaab, Mekaab was ment to be a turning point but I didn't really see it, maybe next chapter will show an Imp come back.

WiggsMagee's Avatar


WiggsMagee
06.03.2013 , 03:00 PM | #50
I was told and read somewhere a while back (sorry cannot remeber the source to provide a link)
Cannon logically the republic wins this war, the Jedi establish much more control over the government as a result of the influence they held shortly after the war (they move from an advisory role to controlling the republic) until eventually the rep puts pressure on the temple and they lessen there grip.

Very sorry if this is completely wrong, i admit it was a while ago i first read about this, so likely this is wrong