pulling agro question in raids

I'm glad you managed to take time out of your busy schedule of raiding to post that.

BTW, 4400 DPS on the opener isn't that worrying as a tank. Especially since it gives me ~6s before you're actually putting out any appreciable threat. With the Flyby pre-cast it looks a lot more impressive (and worrying) than it actually is.

The lesson to be learned here is that sages are viable dps

Running 4 gunslingers would have just made it too easy

Viably at the bottom of the dps charts

Back to generating threat for tanks.
Is it possible for a tank to always hold aggro on two seperate mobs (adds on Golden Fury) when each is targeted by a 72 geared dps? Even with double guards it was close and sometimes one of the adds would slip away. And no, burning one add and then the second one is easy to manage with threat, I'm talking about a challenge for tanks. Aoe taunt had to be used later in the rotation, which means you have to spam a targeted aoe attack at the start so they start doing their cast on you. Anyway, it seemed doable but I have to refine my rotation (as an Assassin), and you have double the chance to screw up due to misses or strings of crits.

On Golden Fury HM adds I struggle to target them quickly enough and I end up needing to AOE taunt very often. Dunno if I am doing something wrong there. Both targeting by tabbing or clicking seems to start to work very late about when they start attacking the healers. Just using next target and hitting slow time until it targets them automatically is too slow as well. Maybe I just generally have more lag then everyone else or something but 1/2 of the time I end up needing to burn my AOE taunt at the start which is deeply wrong. Any suggestion here?

By the way do you generally use 2 DPS or 1 DPS on them?

Yes it is. However, it comes down to two things:

1) Proper Timing of your AoE Taunt.
2) What kind of tank you are. (Shadows will have the easiest time, Followed by Vanguards and Guardians are almost hopeless)

Not much you can do if a healer pulls. But you can get threat back without using an AoE taunt. Slow Time + Breach should do the trick for you. Project one and TK throw the other. Your biggest concern will be the dps. Since there is all kinds of delay from the adds before you can target them (stupid animation showing them not really there) it may be wise to have the dps hold back until you have initiated combat.


Yes, apparently you do not. Let me teach you something. When Kephess puts the debuff on Tank A, he targets the next highest threat on his threat table (Ideally that would be the OT, but OT's tend to be lazy so it is usually a dps). After Tank A Clears his debuff, he then has his full amount of threat again (He never looses his threat, his threat is just ignored for the duration of the debuff). Let's assume Tank B taunts just before the debuff goes out. What will happen is Tank B will be placed on top of the threat table and Tank A will be #2. Tank B will have his threat ignored until his debuff is cleared. Tank A would then have aggro on Kephess; unless Tank A taunts Kephess after he puts the debuff out, odds are Tank B will pull highest threat soon as the debuff is cleared which will cause Kephess to snap in his direction...In any event, it makes no difference. You are arguing the use of taunt stacking to hold threat and not an individual tanks ability to hold threat (skill and class mechanic wise).

Please tell me which tank suffers in the threat department when they are not actively tanking the boss. I know of no consistent tanking damage reflects that are vital to threat generation in this game. I mean a case may be able to be made for Guardians for their reflect; BUT that only covers Ranged, Force and Tech attacks. If memory is correct Kephess has 1 ranged "rail shot-like" attack that is normal for him. The only case that can be made is for Shadows. That case is they get force regen when then Dodge, Parry or Shield an attack. Without that regen, they have to use a basic attack in their rotation to sustain force levels. But let's be serious........it doesn't break them. Verdict: OT are lazy and need to play better; but who cares, they have an insta threat button.

Yes! I do realize the end of the first pillar is a PERFECT time to taunt Kephess! For soo many tanking mechanic and threat pull reasons. However, we aren't really discussing when a boss should be taunted in relation to mechanics. We are discussing the capabilities of a tank to actually hold threat within the beginning of a fight. I say at least 50% of the time dps can and will rip off of a tank and the tank would not have been able to do anything BEFORE it. Keyboarninja is of the opinion that a tank can do something before it in a static rotation.



You obviously do not dps or push a dps class. It is better for DoT classes to hold back CD's until they can hit their big moves so there are more big moves in the CD window. For Slingers, it is just before the 4th GCD. For Sages, it is at GCD 1 (or two, depends on how they are opening but no later then 2). Just because the Power Boosts are delayed does not mean you will have it easy establishing a threat margin greater then dps. It means you have that amount of time to watch the dps make your life miserable. If you used dps relics and adrenals as a tank, you may have a fighting chance, but that just makes mitigation stats go bye bye...........not the smartest thing in NiM.


Front loaded damage is any hard hitting damage that can be done in an instant at the beginning rather then built up. Your whole methodology of GCD 4+ being the safe zone is inaccurate. In a previous post I highlighted what would happen if a "perfect" Shadow rotation was to go up against my dps. The result, me tanking. You may argue your taunt placement will save you. That is right if you use it after I pull threat. Stockstrike + HiB is a hard hitting combo, not to mention if they set up some burst with a grenade when you do your "Free Saber Throw" stacking their burst even more.......


You say you work your dps rotation around the tanks threat thresholds. That is nice of you, but nerfing the damage you do. Our discussion here assumes dps is doing their BEST rotation by putting out the maximum damage. We agree on the fact that to limit a dps's ability to deal damage, you are forcing them to be infective. We agree that that is bad and we are not going to do it.

Why thank you! I probably am. I am only missing 1 Relic (I use a PvP one and there was that bug, but let's not dwell). I am full BiS 72, yes that means all my enhancements are the "good ones". But sadly, that gear doesn't mean a lot if I couldn't handle my class. My point is, I was using an average training dummy parse to give numbers for comparison. I was not stacking the deck in my favor. In an operation, well.............you f****ing stack the deck in favor of your dps by putting Sentinels in their group and not the healers. In my numbers WITHOUT the deck stacked in my favor, I am still ripping of a tank doing their "maximum threat possible" rotation. If you stack the deck in my favor, you just make my case for me due to my increased TPS.

Oh btw, what does having a Combat Sentinel have to do with being the best geared dps in the game?


I am going to have fun with this one.

This "Free Saber Throw" you are talking about is not a benefit to you. It comes from you INITIATING combat. Every tank has an ability they do first. Just the other two tanks can do 8k threat first vs your 2k (maybe)....

So, still on the "effective TPS" idea......let's, for a moment, discuss EHPS (Effective Heals Per Second). EHPS is the amount of heals done to a target(s) that fills their health bar up to and no more then 100%. A healer with a massive amount of over heals (heals given to a target that is at full health) is either healing the wrong target or spamming AoE's. A healer will use EHPS to see how much damage they are actually healing and what abilities are not really giving a target health. This is why it is called "Effective". Now back to Threat.............all threat is effect given a single target. The tank must have the MOST effective threat (highest) in order to control the boss. A tanks threat will always be measured in effective threat. Now a dps can have "wasted" threat (if there is such a thing) or rather a lower "Effective" threat then their actual threat. This happens when a dps dot's up a target then tab targets and repeats. It can also happen if a dps uses their higher priority rotation on one target and then their "fillers" on a second target. There are other cases where dps can spread out damage. In the spreading of damage, their overall threat is high but their ETPS is low realative to each individual target.

Ok, so in the quote above...the bolded/red statement. Yeah that one.....You admit to a dps being able to generate more threat then a given tank! That was kind of one of my points. It is possible and does happen! You claim a good dps is nice to the tanks, we say a good dps pushes the damage his class can do (and stands in the red and LoS's healers ofc ). I say a good tank knows how to watch the "Target of Target" frame and SOON as it is not on him, he taunts --> DPS threat drops and you win. By your definition of a good dps, you (in effect) ask the dps to do LESS damage then he can/should be doing because YOU can't manage the threat. What does that make you?...asking someone to make your job easier..........................Did you complain about HM LI when it was released? (I apologize, that was taking it too far)


Now on to that last little bit there about Gunslinger in melee range. I play a Saboteur Gunslinger. We have this nifty thing called Scatter Bombs that I get 25% of my damage from. I need to be in melee range, position, time and then roll 18 meters and get all 5 bombs to hit the boss (I have to perform tricky roll in places on humanoid or small hit box targets). Because of this, I am in melee rage a good portion of the time; especially on the open when I roll twice.

On to the bit about Combat! You are inaccurate saying "every second they're (Spelling? ) in combat and delaying their opener they have a chance to proc HoJ and loose a chunk of dps". You literally imply that HoJ has a chance to proc on a timer and not an action.............might want to read the tooltip again buddy. HoJ actually procs off of Ataru Stikes. If they are not attack, they are not getting Ataru Strikes. Yes, their dps is going to suffer, they are not doing damage!

"Every other spec either gains DPS by waiting a few seconds to blow CDs or at worst, doesn't lose DPS by doing so.".............................................. ..Didn't we already agree that Focus Guardians are in there? Not to mention Scoundrels, Shadows, Gunslingers, Sages and Vanguards? I mean really!? The "Push this button to do more damage" should NOT be used ASAP? Those buttons (under "normal" circumstances) should be used any time you are able to push them. The few cases where you do not are for specific burn phases or delaying for Inspiration. Since we assume no outside interference for our dps to tank threat comparison, we do not have to worry about holding back.


Saber Reflect can not be depended on due to its reliance on a boss doing a specific attack. You have to wait for that attack and use it there for it to be effective. I classify Saber Reflect under the "Special" category with Sage Pulls and Guardian Leaps for threat management. Since that is out of the way and we agree that Guardian INITIAL threat generation is lower then a Shadows and I win vs a Shadow 50% of the time we can assume that I shouldn't have to address Guardians again, no?

I am not using my higher potentials. I am using average. I could factor in a lucky string of crits and skew everything in my favor.....Your rotation may be in a good place, but there is still a strong chance I am going to pull threat somewhere in there. That is kinda the point. DPS can outclass tank threat generation if taunts are not used when a dps pulls threat.

Where is the fallacious part? All I need is 110% of the tanks threat to pull off of him (standing in melee range, like I would) or 130%( standing at range) at most. Go back and look at the numbers and do the math between my average TPS and the tanks in different scenarios (I am also assuming the tanks hits 100% of the time, even though we all know that if a tank misses..........they don't have a leg to stand on). Varrying start times can cause a problem with the numbers; however, we assume that the tank gets the first hit followed milliseconds by the dps attacking (Ideally both at the same time, but for practical reasons the tank should have the first hit to pull initial threat followed by the dps begining). Now, as far as varying threat curves between tank classes and dps specs...I agree and that is the point. The initial threat curve of a dps can outclass that of a tank (especially Guardians). As a result of the (and to help the OP out), I suggest doing the Pull -> Taunt --> Drop Threat "rotation" in order to assist in his tanks threat establishment. Keyboardninja is saying that if a tank looses threat at any point, he is bad. I am disagreeing due to the capability of dps to outclass threat generation (assuming a standard and not special circumstances).

You are nerfing the dps, wouldn't it be better to create a situation where dps can start and tanks can get a good baseline threat? Hint, hint................. Pull -> Taunt --> Drop Threat is not a bad thing and a very good tool that is effective in all scenarios.

16 man NiM Firebrand and Stormcaller pre-nerf..................that is all i really need to say. Who here can attest to that enrage timer being tight? I know I can, heh....you guys think 8 Man HM Styrak is bad....pft.

You are simply making excuses for bad tanking now. It is never a dps's fault for pulling threat. By numbers they can outclass tank threat generation. That is why tanks have the "Gib Threat Naow" button.....learn to use it at the right time and there is never an issue in a raid. Good tanks think ahead and plan. Quite simply, if you have a strong dps with you, save your bloody taunt until he pulls you ding dong!


And finally, this.............................................. ........

If you are a gunslinger and NOT pre-casting Flyby and/or Aim Shot, you are doing it wrong. It is the equivalent of a tank deciding he should never use a taunt. Idk what you do in your raids, I know we here at Severity Pre-Cast about 5-7 Flybys on ALL of our pulls. Our tanks can hold threat not only againts me, but 2-3 MORE Gunslingers that are just as good (Total of 3-4 if you can't count. That also means at least one of us is not Guarded). Furthermore, we have 1 Combat Sent, 1 Hybrid AND some great Vanguards. Our kill times are some of the fastest in game. We have cleared ALL current content the week it released (most of it in one night). Am I measuring an E-Peen here!?.................YES. We are good and our tanks can do their job and not QQ about threat. It is tanks like you that make tanks look bad.

If I was on my healer healing you, I would just not cast a heal on you because you are no using your defensive CD's on CD (special cases aside). All so you you would die and get the point to mitigate as much damage as possible! Now, tell me that isn't just the stupidest thing you have heard and go reread your comment and adjust your newbness. (Not gonna apologize for this one, L2P rings bells here)

Now if you want to discuss numbers, please come back with something viable besides conjecture and hearsay. I gave my data assuming dps is able to do their job and not cater to a bad tank. Keyboardninja gave his. What it boils down to for our individual argument is the taunt placement or rather the intent of the taunt (assume dps is going to pull, or assume you are going to do more then dps). We have our supporting arguments........you sir have nothing but "please don't attack the boss because I can't tank".

You could totes use a Sage, totally viable, DPS to burst damage up front and taunt off them.

roflol........................where is the "Sage DPS is Viable (For Bottom of the meter)" thread you were going to put up?

I'm hijacking this one, more visibility.