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Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

MidichIorian's Avatar


MidichIorian
05.28.2013 , 01:44 PM | #291
Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
My innervate crits for 1100 per tick, a dps can easily burn that down.
Huh?????
I don't even think it's possible to get such low ticks in the bolster system. Mine ticks for 3,1K'ish on crits and around 1,8K on non crits.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.28.2013 , 01:46 PM | #292
Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
I understand how to play, but you are making it seem like a sorc can simply just hit 1 or 2 spells without thinking.

To get your rotation right, to be able to fight through constantly being marked and getting off heals, isnt as easy as you make it. Generally in a wz there is 1 or 2 healers, and unless Im against a bad team, I generally take the most damage in every wz (light armor, yay)

Reviv is only as good as the wz you are in. Smart teams immediately put aoes down on it, thus completely negating one of my most expensive casts. Its also only efficient for spreading out healing (a lot of those numbers are junk like aoe dps or dots) because its simply topping people off who are taking slight aoe damage. My innervate crits for 1100 per tick, a dps can easily burn that down.

And as I said previously, if a team is properly focusing on 1-2 targets, no amount of shield/resurgence/reviv is going to save them. You need to hit them with innervate/dark infusion to keep them up.

But that is why this isnt really an issue. DPS makes or breaks your team. If they can burn down targets, you are going to win. If they cant burn down targets inspect the player.

Its not about healers, its about the players. I can guess at my teams chances as soon as I zone in. 1) Do I recognize any of the names, 2) are there more than 2 in a good pvp guild and 3) do I have considerably more (5k+) hps than anyone else on my team.
Sorcs are probably borderline manageable if it's just one of them, but hardly a WZ goes by with only 1 healer now. Add another Sorc and now it's much harder to focus on them. Add an Operative and you can pretty much forget about trying to burst down either healer.

Of course since healers are all over the place it does indeed boil down to DPS but it's a rather degenerative form of gameplay. Your DPS isn't really beating the enemy healer if they're at all good, though this applies to your side as well. In the optimistic case this might mean your DPS managed to kill their healer twice which is one more than the amount of time your healer died, so this wins in the game. In the degenerate case this means your DPS was quicker at clicking on nodes as they're the best objective takers in a game where nobody dies (it's safe to do no DPS if nobody is dying anyway). It's likely the stronger team wins still but it's not in a way that's at all enjoyable. Objective based WZ simply doesn't make much sense when the total number of deaths on both side is in the single digits.

Soxbadger's Avatar


Soxbadger
05.28.2013 , 01:47 PM | #293
Quote: Originally Posted by MidichIorian View Post
Huh?????
I don't even think it's possible to get such low ticks in the bolster system. Mine ticks for 3,1K'ish on crits and around 1,8K on non crits.

I meant revivication, sorry. Innervate is over 3.2k

I also made changes to my post to reflect. My reviv crits for over 1100 and normally does 600.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.28.2013 , 01:52 PM | #294
Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
I meant revivication, sorry. Innervate is over 3.2k
Revivification is obviously not designed to keep anyone alive while under pressure. The change to it (faster cast) isn't beneficial in the sense that those massive powerful circles on the ground are now keeping a pressured healer alive. It's that because they're fast casting you no longer have to worry about the worst case scenario where a DPS have you completely beaten by interrupting you at 0.1s left to cast and then stun you. This is the same reason why casting Dark Infusion/Deliverance is dangerous, because you risk taking 6 seconds of concentrated DPS. Actually it's even worse in the case of Revivication, as the amount it heals is certainly nowhere enough to keep any DPS off, so often a perfectly valid strategy is just let the Sorc finish casting his Revivification and just DPS him through it. Prior to 2.0, it took a lot of guts to cast Revivification because it's basically a free invitation for 6 seconds of focus fire. In PvP, the difference between 4 seconds (straight up stun) and 6 seconds (interrupted at the last 0.1s of your heal) is an eternity and with the change to Revivification you're usually looking at ~5s in the worst case, which is something you can live with.

Soxbadger's Avatar


Soxbadger
05.28.2013 , 01:54 PM | #295
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Sorcs are probably borderline manageable if it's just one of them, but hardly a WZ goes by with only 1 healer now. Add another Sorc and now it's much harder to focus on them. Add an Operative and you can pretty much forget about trying to burst down either healer.

Of course since healers are all over the place it does indeed boil down to DPS but it's a rather degenerative form of gameplay. Your DPS isn't really beating the enemy healer if they're at all good, though this applies to your side as well. In the optimistic case this might mean your DPS managed to kill their healer twice which is one more than the amount of time your healer died, so this wins in the game. In the degenerate case this means your DPS was quicker at clicking on nodes as they're the best objective takers in a game where nobody dies (it's safe to do no DPS if nobody is dying anyway). It's likely the stronger team wins still but it's not in a way that's at all enjoyable. Objective based WZ simply doesn't make much sense when the total number of deaths on both side is in the single digits.
Well (imo) an optimal line up has 1-2 healers. 3 is manageable depending on zone, but if you dont cap first you may have an extremely rough time re-taking the node.

But healing is never going to win a match, at best healing will be a stalemate and even in a stalemate I believe that kills are the determining factor.

Which is why you are seeing a lot of new strategies to start wzs. You dont just simply send 1 person to node and the rest to fight at mid. You have some going 4/0/4, 2/2/4, etc etc, because getting the first tick matters. Having strategy matters.

Soxbadger's Avatar


Soxbadger
05.28.2013 , 02:03 PM | #296
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Revivification is obviously not designed to keep anyone alive while under pressure. The change to it (faster cast) isn't beneficial in the sense that those massive powerful circles on the ground are now keeping a pressured healer alive. It's that because they're fast casting you no longer have to worry about the worst case scenario where a DPS have you completely beaten by interrupting you at 0.1s left to cast and then stun you. This is the same reason why casting Dark Infusion/Deliverance is dangerous, because you risk taking 6 seconds of concentrated DPS. Actually it's even worse in the case of Revivication, as the amount it heals is certainly nowhere enough to keep any DPS off, so often a perfectly valid strategy is just let the Sorc finish casting his Revivification and just DPS him through it. Prior to 2.0, it took a lot of guts to cast Revivification because it's basically a free invitation for 6 seconds of focus fire. In PvP, the difference between 4 seconds (straight up stun) and 6 seconds (interrupted at the last 0.1s of your heal) is an eternity and with the change to Revivification you're usually looking at ~5s in the worst case, which is something you can live with.
You are basically arguing against yourself now. If innervate is on cool down, the only big heal I have is dark infusion, which you just said is a risky cast. Otherwise its dark heal (also channeled) which is not force efficient and crits for 40-50% less.

The only 3 spells I can use while moving and heal are 1) cleanse, 2) shield and 3) resurgence. Otherwise I have to stand there (even if reviv is 2 stacks, I still have to stand still)

Im just not sure how sorcs are overpowered...

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.28.2013 , 02:11 PM | #297
Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
Well (imo) an optimal line up has 1-2 healers. 3 is manageable depending on zone, but if you dont cap first you may have an extremely rough time re-taking the node.

But healing is never going to win a match, at best healing will be a stalemate and even in a stalemate I believe that kills are the determining factor.

Which is why you are seeing a lot of new strategies to start wzs. You dont just simply send 1 person to node and the rest to fight at mid. You have some going 4/0/4, 2/2/4, etc etc, because getting the first tick matters. Having strategy matters.
The problem is that most premades are cowardly and it's easy to come to the realization that if your guys aren't dying, you probably won't lose. Now, if you've 3 (or more) healers you're not going to have much DPS either, which means if the other side has any healing they also enjoy the same 'can't lose' advantage you have. And sure strategy matters but now a game of Alderaan would be like 'they got the first tick, so thanks for coming and DPS pretend you're trying to kill someone for the next 20 minutes." Is that really the kind of gameplay you want to encourage? Do you really want 3 DPS glue themselves to a node on Voidstar/Novare Coast and just cap nonstop from begining to end? It's a perfectly valid strategy in a heavy heal versus heavy heal situation, and you can even say good players will be better at chain capping (they presumably will know when is the best opportunity to do so and throw out CCs as necessary). Sure this is still a matter of skill, but it just feels weird to say our DPS was better at clicking the node than the other side which is why we won. Shouldn't we won because our DPS is actually better at killing their guys than their DPS?

JouerTue's Avatar


JouerTue
05.28.2013 , 02:23 PM | #298
the first issue is the lack of voice chat in pugs.
the second is the 90% of players are terribads or are people who aren't at 100% in wz environment
people don't knowing the other classes(name of casts to interrupt)

if 2 dps focus a healer he's dead.
if the said healer is forced to heal just himself the others are killable.
a good burst from 2 players can shut you down (i know, i play healers, dps and tanks in pvp) i've seen this from every point of view possible, taunted the dps focusing my healer, joined another dps in taking down a healer (they go DOWN) have been focused by two dps..i died after casting self heals till resource went exausted.

sure that if on an operative i run all the time deployng HoTs and surgical probes and aoe on TA i will never stopped by all those keyboard turners, backpedallers clickers out there.
i've passed a whole VS chasing a sage and it's sure he didn't heal anyone but himself. but he never died lol.

and good teamplay is good.
so nerf sages and guardians because they can score alone in huttball in less than 20 seconds. it's the same issue.
if you cannot play wz go for the dailies on tatooine

Soxbadger's Avatar


Soxbadger
05.28.2013 , 02:47 PM | #299
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
The problem is that most premades are cowardly and it's easy to come to the realization that if your guys aren't dying, you probably won't lose. Now, if you've 3 (or more) healers you're not going to have much DPS either, which means if the other side has any healing they also enjoy the same 'can't lose' advantage you have. And sure strategy matters but now a game of Alderaan would be like 'they got the first tick, so thanks for coming and DPS pretend you're trying to kill someone for the next 20 minutes." Is that really the kind of gameplay you want to encourage? Do you really want 3 DPS glue themselves to a node on Voidstar/Novare Coast and just cap nonstop from begining to end? It's a perfectly valid strategy in a heavy heal versus heavy heal situation, and you can even say good players will be better at chain capping (they presumably will know when is the best opportunity to do so and throw out CCs as necessary). Sure this is still a matter of skill, but it just feels weird to say our DPS was better at clicking the node than the other side which is why we won. Shouldn't we won because our DPS is actually better at killing their guys than their DPS?
I actually almost never use pre-mades. For the time being, I am in a PVE guild (no one else even has a full set of partisan let alone conqueror). I play against pub/imp premades. Sometimes my pug wins, sometimes my pug loses. Yesterday I was in a zone where the highest hps on my team were 25k, I currently have 30k as a sorc. It didnt matter that I was the top healer in the zone, it didnt matter that the other team had no healers, my team simply could do nothing to them.

And from my perspective, the team with the best dps is more likely to win than the team with the best healer.

If you have 6 dps that are better than my 6 dps, it likely wont matter if my 2 healers are better than your 2 healers. The reason is, you are outputting way more damage way quicker, so your healers (even though they are worse) can keep up with bad dps, where even the best healer cant outpace focused top end dps.

If anything good dps + good gear, is really the ticket to winning. But many dps are not running full expertise and then wondering why they cant kill the healer who has more hp and more expertise.

dcgregorya's Avatar


dcgregorya
05.28.2013 , 02:55 PM | #300
Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
You are basically arguing against yourself now. If innervate is on cool down, the only big heal I have is dark infusion, which you just said is a risky cast. Otherwise its dark heal (also channeled) which is not force efficient and crits for 40-50% less.

The only 3 spells I can use while moving and heal are 1) cleanse, 2) shield and 3) resurgence. Otherwise I have to stand there (even if reviv is 2 stacks, I still have to stand still)

Im just not sure how sorcs are overpowered...
You're not supposed to be energy neutral while eating focus fire - though the self heal and bubble HoT helps. Don't neglect polarity shift and overload either. If you're not taking the instant AOE heal on overload and spamming it you're doing it wrong - it's very good. You're going to keep innervate on cooldown even if people go to interrupt it because you're probably going to get at least 2 ticks and right after that you're going to follow it with resurgence into dark heal. You can use resurgence into innervate if you're not being focused but I think people don't realize that when you are being focused you want to use resurgence on dark heal for burst healing.

This is why sorcs benefit inordinately from having a second healer. They can go invincible and get healed to full, even while stunned, sit in their cuddle puddle with HoTs on them from an operative and consume themselves to regain mana, and when needed pop polarity shift for the anti-interrupt effect - particularly if their resolve bar is maxed.