Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

MajinUltima's Avatar


MajinUltima
05.28.2013 , 09:00 AM | #281
Quote:
Personally I think healing needed to be buffed. Most people didn't like healing in warzones pre 2.0 because 1 DPS could easily kill 1 healer if they were geared right, so there was no point in playing them.
Sounds like your healer shouldn't be 1v1ing. Maybe your team support role needs to be providing and attracting TEAM SUPPORT. If healer is 1v1ing, you're right, there's no point in that player being a healer. Find a healer who knows how to play a healer.

Quote:
God forbid that you actually need to have a little more teamwork to take down a healer
Requiring a TEAM to take down A player-anything is stupid. It should require a team to beat a team, sure. It should not require a team to kill a lone healer, ever, under any circumstances. It did require teamwork before to kill a healer as part of a team, you had to isolate them so that the dps could do their 1on1 job of killing the healer. If the healer was guarded or being cross-healed, they wouldn't die unless another player was CCing/distracting the other tank, healer, dps-peeler, etc.

Currently you need to have 2 dps on the healer before any other modifiers just to have any hope of killing them within a respawn window. If you have 1 dps chasing 1 healer, that healer ain't dying before the respawn timers have passed a few times. Healers who didn't know how to play with a team, as a team, got mad that dps could 1v1 them so healing got buffed to the point that the game is degenerate. If a healer doesn't have team support, that isn't even necessarily the healer's fault, but it SHOULD be a DEAD healer and quickly. It's frustrating, but it's what you signed up for when you want to roll with a team role.

If you want to be a solo champ, then don't complain when your team support options are limited. If you're gonna be a big source of team support, don't whine about someone else killing you badly 1on1. Like I said, a massively entitled attitude that healers feel they should do anything better than die horribly out alone. You should get what you sign up for role-wise. If your tank is disatisfied his damage is low, he shouldn't be a tank. If your healer is upset he dies 1on1, he shouldn't be a healer. If your dps is upset they can't make a big impact in big battles, they should be a tank/healer instead.

Unfortunately, the current state of affairs is the healers just dominate all categories making 1v1s and team engagements take so long that the actual dps role is a moot point.

Quote:
No! 4 players from team A chasing 2 healers from team B (they were cross healing and making each other immortal) for more than a solid minute while the remaining 4 players from team A are butchered by 6 players from team B and your objectives are taken is considered a good strategy. You are bad if math works correctly for you, the real players are able to defy math.
It's a lose-lose when stacked healers are involved. If those 6 in mid had the healers instead, they just don't die until respawn timers. If you send equal or less, you make no progress. If you send more, you have no defense.

MajinUltima's Avatar


MajinUltima
05.28.2013 , 09:23 AM | #282
Quote:
Both my Ops healer and my sorc healer die pretty easily to 2 dps.
Anyone should be deader than dead 2on1. You should be dead 1on1 without help. Your phrasing is so entitled like "well losing 2v1 is means I'm balanced". Really? Of course you should lose 2on1, I don't care what class you play. Your posts are painful to read.
Quote:
I know any of my dps characters can fully occupy a healer.
He's fully occupying the DPS as well, more than occupying. A healer shouldn't be this paragon role of uberness which 1 enemy merely "occupies" the time of. Like I said, your phrasing is beyond entitled.
Quote:
Have you tried, you know, interupting the healers?
Let's list the main spells an Operative uses to see what I can interrupt...
- Kolto Probe? Nope.
- Surgical Probe? Nope.
- Recuperative Nanotech? Nope.
- Their cleansing dispel which also heals? Nope.
- Kolto Injection? The weak filler heal? Ah, alright, there we go. I can interrupt THAT... while the vast majority of their healing performance is uninterruptable and undispellable AND dirt cheap on resource cost.

A Sorc/Sage isn't much better. Their spammable bubble AND their short cd HOT are both instant. Their channelled spell is almost certain to tick 1-2x before being interrupted AND has a cooldown shorter than most interrupts, which makes it not worth interrupting, since they already got a sizeable heal off AND leaves you unable to interrupt their filler. Like Operative, Sorc/Sage leaves you in a spot where you can only interrupt their filler which isn't the bulk of their healing output. Their big AOE heal is interruptable at least, which is something.

Players who are ignorant of healing specs should refrain from making off-hand comments trying to smugly imply that other players are bad.
Quote:
4 seconds of global shutdown on heals for an interrupt would actually force healers to learn to play and finally draw a line between conscious healers and heal farm spammers.
Im a healer btw.
That does sound like a reasonable potential solution... but one that basically kills all Merc/Commando healers completely. Moving Healing Scan to Instant cast might be an additional adjustment for them to at least not leave them worse than currently.

Quote:
Which is exactly why I hated playing a Healer pre-2.0 - in an random battlefield consisting entirely with PUGs, randoms, zerging and NO TEAMPLAY.
I dislike playing healing specs because I don't like being dependent on others if I'm caught in a 1v1 or 1v2 or even just a generally split up engagement. My solution isn't "OMG LET'S BUFF HEALERS TO DOMINATE ALL SIZES OF GAMEPLAY", my solution is to recognize that healing in PVP isn't really for me as a player. A LOT of healers posting against me in this thread only heal because it is so dominating right now, they wouldn't heal if they actually had to be dependent on teammates.

Quote:
I found the opposite to be true. In PUGs I realized quickly that most matches, we never had a healer and would just get crushed. So I started checking for healers, and if there weren't any I would field respect and we would do a lot better. Sure, it wasn't as fun, but it made the overall warzone more enjoyable.
In the olden days or yore, a long time ago, galaxy, far away, etc... it boiled down to individual competency and communication on the enemy team. It was entirely possible to go 1 match untouched and the next match killed on sight. Nowadays, the latter just isn't an option most of the time because of how disproportinately powerful healing is. Good DPS prioritizing healers cannot shut down even an unsupported healer alone, let alone a supported one. (Individual skill/gear always matters, this is a generalization.)

In lv55 PVP, against premades stacking healers or against pugs with a lot of healers, the match boils down to a "Why bother? They won't die anyway.".

Jaiyne's Avatar


Jaiyne
05.28.2013 , 10:14 AM | #283
I didn't read this whole thread but I will say this...

I notice an ENORMOUS difference between normal and ranked WZs; AND competent teams/good players in normal WZs vs less effective teams. As a healer, I cannot lol-heal in ranked. In normals, against good players, I rely on my team a ton to survive focus fire - but against less effective players/teams, I can, for example, hold up 3-5 players at a point for a very long time as a sorc healer (same for my operative healer).

In conclusion, it is absolutely a LTP issue for those players - or perhaps they just have a really bad comp. Either way, before 2.0 any derp DPS would do. Now, teams actually need to focus fire, stagger interrupts on good healers. This is obviously more difficult for PUGs to do but it can be done. Good players are good players.

Editing to add - guard/taunt (especially when paired with op healers) is probably too strong. Also, op healers need resource management to enter the equation again. The skill cap for healing on an op is far too low now because we never have to consider energy unless we're being careless and rolling all around.
**Saeya*Jaiyne*India*Syarae**

POTF

Ajuntalee's Avatar


Ajuntalee
05.28.2013 , 10:28 AM | #284
Quote:
Editing to add - guard/taunt (especially when paired with op healers) is probably too strong. Also, op healers need resource management to enter the equation again. The skill cap for healing on an op is far too low now because we never have to consider energy unless we're being careless and rolling all around.
in which case i had rather the healing toned down to more reasonable, than the taunting/guarding,

cause toning down guard/taunts, will dumb down the game making those mechanics forgettable gimmicks and hence the classes/spe that bring those spells to the table,

healing will not be a forgettable mechanic if toned down, it has a lot of leeway for nerf.

Paulman's Avatar


Paulman
05.28.2013 , 10:45 AM | #285
Quote: Originally Posted by dcgregorya View Post
Every healing class has an alternative heal if their main heal gets interrupted. Both sorcs and merc healers also get interrupt immunity cooldowns. Over half the HPS from an operative is coming from non-interruptable instants. The only way to handle it is to chain stun and burst, which is entirely based on which classes you have available to you in the fight on the DPS side as some classes cannot chain stun or burst easily.

What'd be interesting (but they won't do) would be if they gave PTs/VGs a 10 second no-regen debuff they could put on people to help break stalemates. For 10 seconds, you don't regen any energy and your existing energy pool is cut in half. Give a 90 second cooldown and make tanks immune to it. You'd fix the current PVP situation and VGs/PTs at the same time.
For sorcs/sages if you don't need to interrupt everything. If you interrupt innervate/healing trance, you'll cut out a large portion of thier healing and core mechanic. You have a point with the operative, many of thier abilities are instant. Emergency medpack is pretty insane for an essentiallly spammable ability but you just have to time your stun for when they are low.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.28.2013 , 10:48 AM | #286
Quote: Originally Posted by Laforet View Post
Interrupt without global or school silence just proves how clueless the people on the developers seat are.

4 seconds of global shutdown on heals for an interrupt would actually force healers to learn to play and finally draw a line between conscious healers and heal farm spammers.

Im a healer btw.
School silence would just put Operative even more hopelessly overpowered relative to other healers, as you can't do school interrupt on instant heals. Global silence would be overkill.

What needs to happen is that the major heal output should be on heals that are interruptible. This is how Commandoes work and how Sages worked mostly until AE heal become super fast casting. Due to PvE consideration, you'd probably need something like all instant casting heals needs to cost 33% more resources while in WZs. If you want to spam heals that can't even be interrupted, you got to pay a very significant price to do so.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.28.2013 , 10:50 AM | #287
Quote: Originally Posted by Paulman View Post
For sorcs/sages if you don't need to interrupt everything. If you interrupt innervate/healing trance, you'll cut out a large portion of thier healing and core mechanic. You have a point with the operative, many of thier abilities are instant. Emergency medpack is pretty insane for an essentiallly spammable ability but you just have to time your stun for when they are low.
Um, Healing Trance ticks extremely fast. You'll probably get half of the heals off before you can interupt it, and then you also don't have an interrupt to deal with anything else they might cast, and Healing Trance has a very low CD. Deliverance is still a more powerful heal if you get to free cast it. It's just that there's currrently no real need to even cast that between all the other uninterruptible/hard to interrupt heals, because it's risky to cast a Deliverance and have it interrupted at the last 0.1s when you can just spam 4 different fast/instant heals.

Soxbadger's Avatar


Soxbadger
05.28.2013 , 12:56 PM | #288
What 4 other heals do sorcs have that can be spammed?

1) revivication requires a 3x proc from innervate and has a 15 second cd

2) resurgence has a cool down 6 seconds

3) Shield can be spammed but not on same player due to ionization

4) Cleanse has a cd 4.5 seconds

If you are a sorc healer, you also likely have to use non-pvp gear to get the cd reduction on innervate, otherwise its 9 seconds. Which I guess is now a "very low cd".

Sure I can spam heal against a team that is 1v 1 solo death matching. But if you focus 1 target and you are stunning me, there is no way I can fix it. All the resurgence/shield in the world isnt going to solve a burst. For that you need innervate and dark infusion, which are both channeled.

What is funny is when I go into wzs with players who dont have good gear and they are melted before I can even attempt to try and bring them back. Yeah Im hard to kill, I have fully augmented gear and understand what I am doing.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.28.2013 , 01:08 PM | #289
Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
What 4 other heals do sorcs have that can be spammed?

1) revivication requires a 3x proc from innervate and has a 15 second cd

2) resurgence has a cool down 6 seconds

3) Shield can be spammed but not on same player due to ionization

4) Cleanse has a cd 4.5 seconds
Rotate between those heals and innervate and you can always be casting something really hard to interrupt. You don't need all 3 procs to cast Revivification. There's a pretty good chance the 2 stack or 1 stack version will slip through and if it gets interrupted you can always cast a big heal instead. The procs for revivification is there to preven the worst case scenario where you spend 1.9s casting Revivification and have it interrupted and that gives the enemy enough time to try to burst you down. With even 1 stack it's way harder to attempt to interrupt it at the last 0.1s so either it gets interrupted much earlier or not at all and either outcome is fine.

Soxbadger's Avatar


Soxbadger
05.28.2013 , 01:35 PM | #290
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Rotate between those heals and innervate and you can always be casting something really hard to interrupt. You don't need all 3 procs to cast Revivification. There's a pretty good chance the 2 stack or 1 stack version will slip through and if it gets interrupted you can always cast a big heal instead. The procs for revivification is there to preven the worst case scenario where you spend 1.9s casting Revivification and have it interrupted and that gives the enemy enough time to try to burst you down. With even 1 stack it's way harder to attempt to interrupt it at the last 0.1s so either it gets interrupted much earlier or not at all and either outcome is fine.
I understand how to play, but you are making it seem like a sorc can simply just hit 1 or 2 spells without thinking.

To get your rotation right, to be able to fight through constantly being marked and getting off heals, isnt as easy as you make it. Generally in a wz there is 1 or 2 healers, and unless Im against a bad team, I generally take the most damage in every wz (light armor, yay)

Reviv is only as good as the wz you are in. Smart teams immediately put aoes down on it, thus completely negating one of my most expensive casts. Its also only efficient for spreading out healing (a lot of those numbers are junk like aoe dps or dots) because its simply topping people off who are taking slight aoe damage. My reviv (incorrectly typed innervate) crits for 1100 per tick, a dps can easily burn that down.

And as I said previously, if a team is properly focusing on 1-2 targets, no amount of shield/resurgence/reviv is going to save them. You need to hit them with innervate/dark infusion to keep them up.

But that is why this isnt really an issue. DPS makes or breaks your team. If they can burn down targets, you are going to win. If they cant burn down targets inspect the player.

Its not about healers, its about the players. I can guess at my teams chances as soon as I zone in. 1) Do I recognize any of the names, 2) are there more than 2 in a good pvp guild and 3) do I have considerably more (5k+) hps than anyone else on my team.