This game needs a combat log/dmg meter tool

The problem is that, as soon as the damage meter becomes a standard feature in the game, the behavior gains a substantial degree of legitimacy. The mindset will be that, if you're not willing to get into the DPS meter that's right there in the game, you're just trying to hide your terrible DPS. As a third party parsing program, it's harder to do so that, unless you're actually interested in it or your regular group requires it.

The reason the devs have been so reluctant to include tools *in game* to specifically quantify performance is not to anger the elite players that are obsessed with maximizing their numbers. The reason is to protect the average player *from* the elitist. The elitist is perfectly capable of being able to quantify their own numbers, but they don't really have a way to force random people, through explicit mechanisms (like shared combat logs like WoW uses) or outright peer pressure (like would occur if there were an incredibly easy to access in game shared damage meter), to put themselves under the intense scrutiny of those that are expressly focused on quantifying performance.

In short, they want players to be *able* to parse their own numbers if they want to, but they don't want any players to feel the slightest bit of compulsion to do so. Some people play the game for stuff other than numbers (which, admitted, is not something I do; I'm all for the numbers; I'm just cogent of the fact that some people really don't like them and are uncomfortable when compelled, socially or otherwise, to be held accountable to those that do).

" If it really bothers you that a dps meter is held to be the skill of a player then you have never played or cared about endgame content."

If that is the quote you are talking about. I am not the one using dps=skill as a standard, im refering to other raiders in a group posting meters when it does nothing and is useless.

When Player A pulls 1003834872dps but dies in p3 fire every attempt, that is not skill.
When Player B pulls below avg dps but avoids all mechanics.

We both agree to take player B over A.

Peer Preasure? Really? The ignore feature is there for a reason. To ignore players that trying to "peer preasure" you.

Peer Pressure is just as much a cultural pressure (and, yes, you can easily define the game we play as its own specific sub-culture with its own rules and morays) as it is individual. If such it is simple to place yourself under the scrutiny of others, the obligation develops within the culture itself. The devs have pretty much explicitly said they want to avoid that.

A good real time combat log that lists everything in as much detail as possible is the single best way for any new player to learn any mmo. Elitism exists anyways to whatever degree the elitist is a $#%^&*. IMO real time combat logs greatly lessen the learning curve of knowing exactly what to do and when to do it. There are stupid mistakes that are easily overlooked like "when I do y, x happens, so I will continue to do y"....when in reality "y" is a mistake that another player is doing "z" to compensate for which results in "x". But you don't know that unless someone tells you, you have a good real time logger, or you just know the game that well.

So what's wrong with using torparse, or mox?

Can't avoid it though, and actions taken to actively suppress elements of human nature often result in the exact opposite of their intent. In swtor it means newer players are usually peer pressured away from tanking in group missions (fp's so on). You can minimize aspects of human nature by giving them less fuel, in swtor (imo) that would mean a really good real time, detailed, combat log. It would make newer players learn the game faster and be peer-pressured less away from unfamiliar roles.

Informed peer-pressure is probably a very ancient evolutionary way that individuals are taught how to succeed at important specific roles within the group. It is important to the success of the group. You can have informed peer pressure or non-informed peer-pressure. If it is informed it can be minimized naturally as people actually learn rather quickly. If it is not informed, it just gets worse. I think in the case of swtors lack of a group-wide combat log, it just gets worse. Instead of thinking, "geez, they are right, I need to take the advice to up my dps/healing/aggro" one thinks, "geez, these people are a-holes, what are they talking about".

As far as I know, both require voluntary participation to have ones log parsed. I think that is compulsory in a good logger, which is why I think it should be a feature of swtor.

You seriously believe that giving players that don't even read their tooltips or even the basic tutorials half the time (I've met level 50 troopers and smugglers that didn't know that their resources regenerated slower the less they had) will learn faster if you give them even *more* information?

Information is only useful to people that, 1, are interested in using it, and, 2, know enough about the system to actually apply it. Just providing it to everyone assuming that it will benefit all of them is *incredibly* naive.

And you're completely forgetting about the people, who the developers are very interested in protecting, who think, "why the hell are these guys bringing up numbers when i'm just looking to enjoy myself?". Numbers don't matter to some people and, providing an in-game combat log would simply *force them* to start *having* to pay attention to numbers or else face ridicule.

Right now, the extent of peer pressure is "you're performing badly; learn the strats and do some research into your class (or, if you know the class, take this specific advice)". With a combat logger, it will be "holy crap, you're not doing enough damage (even if you're playing properly and are just undergeared), you suck", and we know this because *that's exactly what happens in WoW with Recount*.

Yes, some people use Recount properly, but a vast majority don't and simply use it as a tool for ridicule and/or epeening. The explicit choice on the part of the devs to not have an in-game parser while allowing for third party parsers protects the population from the people that use Recount as a tool for derision while allowing those that use Recount as a form of self-analysis to do so with only a modicum of additional effort (which pretty much all of them take now anyways). The loss of the tiny number of players that would benefit from the additional self-analysis (since, as mentioned before, most players that don't already do it wouldn't benefit from any kind of in-game meters) is *vastly* outweighed by the protection of the general population from the terrible behavior that such mechanisms creates in a game.

So... Let me see if I can break down what you are ACTUALLY saying.

You have to choose to join Mox or Torparse. You think that voluntary participation is a requirement of a good logger. So, what we have already should be a feature of SWTOR.

So, you just said that you are in agreement, and that nothing should be changed. Got it.