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Suggestions that will partly fix operatives dps problems without making them op.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Suggestions that will partly fix operatives dps problems without making them op.

Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
05.24.2013 , 06:19 AM | #1
Let's face it,how often do you see operative dps in operations and in warzones?Yes,not that often.Clearly operatives have dps problems.

Don't know if it is mentioned before but:

1.A great way to improve operatives that is also very suitable for the operative style of gameplay is to increase all damage done while you are *fully* behind your target by 10% or 15%.This is not only a step in the right direction but also increases the skill cap of the class.An improvement of this kind will not make it fotm or something.

This can be a passive skill that all operatives get at level 10.
It looks kinda strange because 2 of our skills have a requirement for you to be behind your target and it doesn't make any lore sense why would grenade do more damage if used from behind your target,but i had this idea.

2.Also Hidden Strike can be made as an attack that can be used out of stealth but with a huge cooldown and it will reset when you enter stealth.

Gondolindhrim's Avatar


Gondolindhrim
05.24.2013 , 07:45 AM | #2
DPS isn't the main problem, it's more that Concealment relies too heavily on stealth, and both specs are too squishy for what's effectively a melee class.
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Cryowolf's Avatar


Cryowolf
05.24.2013 , 10:15 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Gondolindhrim View Post
DPS isn't the main problem, it's more that Concealment relies too heavily on stealth, and both specs are too squishy for what's effectively a melee class.
That's it right there. We do great damage *when left alone*. We are way too easy to kill in the middle of combat. Dirty Fighting has the advantage of doing more damage at range to live longer, but you're not applying *meaningful* pressure or getting any kills that way. On either spec when you swoop in to pressure a healer and his teammates respond to defend him, you're dead.

When I am ignored I can pull 500K+ in Scrapper and 800K+ in Dirty Fighting (not the best I'm sure, but I feel good with those numbers). When I am getting attention (I assume I get marked sometimes while off healing) then I am lucky to pull half that. Lately, I feel like smart pugs are marking me in HB to impede my scampering all over the place, lol.)

This could be said of other melee specs, but I believe we have it the worst comparatively, along with DPS Vanguards, who actually have a real problem (reduced burst) now to go with their poor survivability. Shadows, Sentinels and Guardians just have much better survival tools, not to mention great tools to allow them to get their damage off and live to tell the tale.



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Korse's Avatar


Korse
05.24.2013 , 10:29 AM | #4
I'm assuming this is in direct reference to PVP?

The only issue with Operative DPS in PVE is being forced to be within 4m at such a high frequency and the positional requirements of Concealment.
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Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
05.24.2013 , 10:39 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Gondolindhrim View Post
DPS isn't the main problem, it's more that Concealment relies too heavily on stealth, and both specs are too squishy for what's effectively a melee class.
I had the impression that operatives are not supposed to be not squishy.I though we are supposed to go in take out a guy quickly and vanish out of sight.
squishy + huge burst(biggest in the game) and ok sustainable damage+ stealth is supposed to be the stealth mele class in all rpgs.If we get more survivability we are going to be too much like sith assassins,which i don't think is the operative class concept.
I mean i may be wrong in this,if we are supposed to stand toe to toe in a long fight ,then my mistake.

I personally have no problem with being squishy,as long as the damage makes up for it.

Also if we get extra survivability ,operative healers will be completely overpowered in pvp.

Concerning pve,extra damage will also make up for the dangers of being a squishy mele class.

Gondolindhrim's Avatar


Gondolindhrim
05.24.2013 , 03:06 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
I had the impression that operatives are not supposed to be not squishy.I though we are supposed to go in take out a guy quickly and vanish out of sight.
squishy + huge burst(biggest in the game) and ok sustainable damage+ stealth is supposed to be the stealth mele class in all rpgs.If we get more survivability we are going to be too much like sith assassins,which i don't think is the operative class concept.
I mean i may be wrong in this,if we are supposed to stand toe to toe in a long fight ,then my mistake.
This is how Concealment works right now, and while that may be fine in regular warzones against average teams, this is a problem in high-level, competitive play. You can contribute to bursting one enemy target down, but if you're not successful within about 10 seconds, you're forced to either blow your vanish (bad), disengage and wait until you get out of combat (bad) or die (bad). And even if you do manage to successfully kill your target, you'll be stuck in combat and forced to blow your vanish or disengage until you drop combat (or die).

In addition to survivability buffs, Concealment needs some kind of mechanic that decreases stealth reliance in PvP. Perhaps something like if an enemy dies and you've contributed to killing it, you get a proc that lets you re-stealth even if in combat, or use Hidden Strike without the stealth requirement.

Lethality does not rely on stealth to be effective, but can't stand up to focus fire the way a Jugg, Marauder or Assassin can.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
Also if we get extra survivability ,operative healers will be completely overpowered in pvp.
Agreed, which is why the survivability buffs need to be mid/high in the Concealment and Lethality trees.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
Concerning pve,extra damage will also make up for the dangers of being a squishy mele class.
We are fine in PvE, quite strong actually.
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Fallenturtle's Avatar


Fallenturtle
05.24.2013 , 07:05 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Gondolindhrim View Post
This is how Concealment works right now, and while that may be fine in regular warzones against average team, this is a problem in high-level, competitive play. You can contribute to bursting one enemy target down, but if you're not successful within about 10 seconds, you're forced to either blow your vanish (bad), disengage and wait until you get out of combat (bad) or die (bad). And even if you do manage to successfully kill your target, you'll be stuck in combat and forced to blow your vanish or disengage until you drop combat (or die).

In addition to survivability buffs, Concealment needs some kind of mechanic that decreases stealth reliance in PvP. Perhaps something like if an enemy dies and you've contributed to killing it, you get a proc that lets you re-stealth even if in combat, or use Hidden Strike without the stealth requirement.

Lethality does not rely on stealth to be effective, but can't stand up to focus fire the way a Jugg, Marauder or Assassin can.


Agreed, which is why the survivability buffs need to be mid/high in the Concealment and Lethality trees.


We are fine in PvE, quite strong actually.
I agree on all these points especially the pvp ones because bioware thinks it's fun to FORCE us into healing warzones, with one exception..

While we are quite strong in pve, our damage is too reliant on the RNG. I play lethality in pve with almost optimal gear, and with a bad RNG I can only hit about 2200 dps, where as a good RNG I'm pushing 2500 dps with my 66 barrel and 69/72's. Other classes don't have to have "the stars align right" to have their dps pushed into the 2600-2800's.

We either need some form of group utility, or have more ways to make up for when the RNG decides to be a butt.. I mean, you'd think after 5 shiv's I'd get a fatality proc every now and then -_- (i've actually had that happen, some 60% chance that is)
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Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
05.25.2013 , 12:04 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Gondolindhrim View Post
This is how Concealment works right now, and while that may be fine in regular warzones against average team, this is a problem in high-level, competitive play. You can contribute to bursting one enemy target down, but if you're not successful within about 10 seconds, you're forced to either blow your vanish (bad), disengage and wait until you get out of combat (bad) or die (bad). And even if you do manage to successfully kill your target, you'll be stuck in combat and forced to blow your vanish or disengage until you drop combat (or die).
Last few days i have been spamming warzones with my operative again, and yes you are very much correct with what you say here.However i don't think i fully agree with the statement that the almost the whole solution to operative pvp problems is survivability improvements,even if they are Concealment and Lethality specific -hight in the skill trees..

Actually many problems that i had previously(before the expansion) were solved with Exfiltrate.When things go bad-2,3 guys start eyeballing and running towards me while i am murdering a lone guy in peace or some situation like that ,i just cleanse myself of any slows and debuffs asap and start exfiltrating the hell out of there.Not mindlessly spamming the ability to some random direction mind you.Just pure emergency evacuation and relocation to another target or a place or w/e quickly.You probably know the drill.

Now the problem: It takes too long to get out of combat and restealth ,and there are also many bugs or mechanics not working as intended that gets you back in combat when you are not supposed to be in it.This is for all classes but it is especially critical for operatives because of the particularities of our (concealment) mechanics.
I am not sure how this can be fixed but it needs to done and it is not fully related to a survivability issue.


Basically i don't want to play with my operative like i play with my Juggernaut or Marauder,or Powertech.I feel like operative burst is not what it is supposed to be,given the circumstances of a low survivability out of stealth.Imo the solution is more damage,not more general survivability out of stealth,because that is not what the class is about.
Although a lower cooldown of Cloaking Screen would be good,given the fact we don't have a Cloak of Shadows type of ability like Assassins do.

Stealth reliance is not necessarily a bad thing,specially when/if going out of combat and restealthing is fixed.

Also ,i think,more survivability will not make operatives as popular in ranked wzs as some people would imagine,because the damage is still going to be single target and it still won't be enough bursty OR sustainable ,*specially* in ranked environment.More utility and damage is needed.

PS:sorry for the long post.

Griad's Avatar


Griad
05.28.2013 , 06:24 AM | #9
I am actually having quite alot of succes in our group as lethality operative spreading dots bursting healers down, i just got a spot in our ranked group aswell, so i am feeling really good about lethality overall however concealment is another matter i really dont like playing that to much downtime.
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Vileknight's Avatar


Vileknight
05.28.2013 , 11:05 AM | #10
I love my concealment op so this is not a suggestion to fix but more of a QoL or wish list i would enjoy for both PVP and PVE:

Explosive probe- Having to crouch to fire this off is a pain and truthfully should be removed of that restriction

Distraction- Can concealment have a cooldown reduction on interrupts, this would give us a niche in PVP and would inadvertently increase our survivability against caster and increase our pressure on healers.

Acid Blade- Can shiv be placed on the list to set the ability off, this is mostly for a PVE QoL but it would allow longer fights where mobs are immune to CC or in Operations where I am unable to be behind the boss to still keep the debuff and DoT active.

That's it for me, beside the exfiltrate bug that locks you in place ever so often i am loving my class at the moment.
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