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rsuhandy's Avatar


rsuhandy
05.23.2013 , 10:03 AM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Grimsblood View Post
His parse is for 3436.56. When you pull it back to the "enter combat" and set the limit to 5 minutes it comes out to 3358.31. A changed of 78.25 dps. In your example You give him an extra minute on the parse. These are just details, however there is a point to it (I am not picking them out just to argue). Saboteur (with scaterbombs) is not necessarily a sustained or "build up" spec. The damage comes strictly from the 20 second CD on HI/CE. It becomes a burst spec with dots that keep some damage going. Cut a log before they go off, the dps falls. Cut a log after it has been used dps rises. The damage the spec does can be manipulated on paper for a desired result.

Different specs require a different amount of set up to do damage. If we are talking about sustained, how about I run a Lethality/Dirty Fighting parse and cut it to only start when the first Cull/Wounding Shots starts (Eliminating the dots in the beginning for set up). This would allow be to get rid of the "ramp up time" and focus more on sustained because Lethality/Dirty Fighting focus's on the proper use of Cull/Wounding Shots. This method is not true to the spec considering what it actually does.

If you analyze a Watchmen Sentinels parse, you would have to cur everything before the 6 stacks of Juyo and 4 stacks of Merciless Slash. So, if I where parsing on my sentinel (by your rules) I would initiate combat --> build focus and centering (saving Master Strike and Zen) until I get my stacks of both buffs --> I would then begin doing damage with all relics and adrenals going with Zen and Inspiration at my. I would then cut my log in the begining to eliminate all of the build up of focus, centering, Juyo and Merc Slash. The log would run for 5 minutes following. This would give me a better idea of what sustained damage I would be doing.

To give a representation of this, I got on my LvL 50 sentinel and went to fleet (yes I had to deal with that nasty lag) and parsed on the LvL 10 training dummy. I had to use that one to ensure I hit with my abilities since the rest are LvL 55 (My gear was a full 63 BiS build from pre 2.0....it included accuarcy stats). Here are my results:

Not Clipped: (2433.68) http://www.torparse.com/a/244058/2/0/Damage+Dealt
End Clipped: (2421.23) http://www.torparse.com/a/244058/tim...0/Damage+Dealt
Beginning and End Clipped: (2477.75) http://www.torparse.com/a/244058/tim...0/Damage+Dealt

Now I ask, which log gives me my sustained damage, my damage threshold and my realistic damage?

The moral of the story here is that importing logs that were created under a different rule set skews the data in favor of trimming the beginning of each log. It sets those logs (unfairly) above the rest for no reason but to measure an e-peen by presenting data in a different fashion.


On the note of measuring fairness and actual thresholds on a global scale, I would put forth the following rule set:

Spoiler




Let me get right on that for you been trying to get a nice MM parse, but I keep getting thrown out of combat
I have to say I don't really agree with you that the parse has to be cropped at exactly 5 min.
His parse is 3419 even with the enter combat state which is ~18 dps difference so not that much of a change.
I don't think it's fair for you to say that the difference is almost 80dps.
I think the parses should be at least 5 min, after which the parse can be cropped to the highest dps point in time.
This would show the MAXIMUM dps that a spec can attain after at least 5 min of combat.
Watchman does benefit quite a bit from Juyo and Merciless Stacking though and you will see a large increase for that spec.

However looking back at your watchman parse here is a Maximized dps number with the ramp up time.

2473
http://www.torparse.com/a/244058/tim...827/0/Overview

~ 4dps difference between your beggining and end clip.

paowee's Avatar


paowee
05.23.2013 , 10:51 AM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by rsuhandy View Post
I have to say I don't really agree with you that the parse has to be cropped at exactly 5 min.
His parse is 3419 even with the enter combat state which is ~18 dps difference so not that much of a change
that is subjective. let me speak for most of the parsers and say, any change is a big change when it comes to DPS.

for pete's sakes people just DONT clip the beginning of the parse. the fight starts when you HIT the friggin dummy! jeez

*hey styrak my man, let us engage in combat but i ask you kindly please do not hit me until i have all my juyo stacks up!*

*hey terror from beyond dude! wazup mate? can i put my corrosive grenade and corrosive dart and interrogation probe and shatter shot and explosive probe and THEN ill Cull and THEN we can start the figtht? im sry bro i need to put my dots up first in order to do 1337 deepyy'ess. thanks budddy!*

ugh
Republic < Intrepid > The Harbinger slinger sage vanguard dps
swtorboard.org dps blog.class guides.end-game stuff
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Grimsblood's Avatar


Grimsblood
05.23.2013 , 11:00 AM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by rsuhandy View Post
I have to say I don't really agree with you that the parse has to be cropped at exactly 5 min.
His parse is 3419 even with the enter combat state which is ~18 dps difference so not that much of a change.
I don't think it's fair for you to say that the difference is almost 80dps.
I think the parses should be at least 5 min, after which the parse can be cropped to the highest dps point in time.
This would show the MAXIMUM dps that a spec can attain after at least 5 min of combat.
Watchman does benefit quite a bit from Juyo and Merciless Stacking though and you will see a large increase for that spec.

However looking back at your watchman parse here is a Maximized dps number with the ramp up time.

2473
http://www.torparse.com/a/244058/tim...827/0/Overview

~ 4dps difference between your beggining and end clip.
In mine specifically there were other factors that prevented the margin from being shown, namely that nasty fleet lag. It is just meant to give an idea of how clipping effects the overall numbers.

As far as the other parse in question; since it dragged out longer and ENDED with the scatter bombs, it caused the numbers to go waaaaaaaay up. Scatter bombs are quite unique. If you end a parse with them your numbers will be far better then if you end it before them. That is why his numbers are higher in the long run, not because that is the maximum for the spec. If you were to stretch it out just 13 more seconds it would be 3372.83. A loss of ~46 dps from the cropping of 3419 DPS. (For referance sake, here is the parse only showing 5 minutes 3358.31)

Do you see how dangerous cropping logs is? If we want any sort of accurate numbers and thresholds, we need the circumstances as close to the same as we can get them. (That includes time and buffs. The only thing we can not account for is built in executes due to talents and abilities.) An argument can be made that if I want accurate numbers, I should examine the log and crop it to compare with mine.........but that kind of defeats the purpose of having global leader-boards for it, doesn't it? It would be the same is if, they didn't track golf scores on a board for everyone to see and forced whoever wanted to know what the scores were to go check the individual cards of the players..................................

Quote: Originally Posted by paowee View Post
that is subjective. let me speak for most of the parsers and say, any change is a big change when it comes to DPS.

for pete's sakes people just DONT clip the beginning of the parse. the fight starts when you HIT the friggin dummy! jeez

*hey styrak my man, let us engage in combat but i ask you kindly please do not hit me until i have all my juyo stacks up!*

*hey terror from beyond dude! wasup brother? can i put my 3 dots and my armor pen and my EP on you first before i Cull and then we can start the figtht? im sry bro i need to put my dots up first in order to do damages. thanks budddy!*

ugh
lmfao
DPS is science. Healing is art. Tanking is strategy.
Hippolytà - Level 50 Sentinel - Grimsblood - Level 55 Sage
Saphyria - Level 55 Sniper - Fenrîr - Level 55 Gunslinger

Hakkology's Avatar


Hakkology
05.23.2013 , 11:03 AM | #104
http://www.torparse.com/a/231688

Operation dummy, Hakko-TK sage-2679,91

No adrenals, no armor debuffs.
Hakko of the Red Eclipse ( Telekinetics Sage )

rsuhandy's Avatar


rsuhandy
05.23.2013 , 12:31 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Grimsblood View Post
In mine specifically there were other factors that prevented the margin from being shown, namely that nasty fleet lag. It is just meant to give an idea of how clipping effects the overall numbers.

As far as the other parse in question; since it dragged out longer and ENDED with the scatter bombs, it caused the numbers to go waaaaaaaay up. Scatter bombs are quite unique. If you end a parse with them your numbers will be far better then if you end it before them. That is why his numbers are higher in the long run, not because that is the maximum for the spec. If you were to stretch it out just 13 more seconds it would be 3372.83. A loss of ~46 dps from the cropping of 3419 DPS. (For referance sake, here is the parse only showing 5 minutes 3358.31)

Do you see how dangerous cropping logs is? If we want any sort of accurate numbers and thresholds, we need the circumstances as close to the same as we can get them. (That includes time and buffs. The only thing we can not account for is built in executes due to talents and abilities.) An argument can be made that if I want accurate numbers, I should examine the log and crop it to compare with mine.........but that kind of defeats the purpose of having global leader-boards for it, doesn't it? It would be the same is if, they didn't track golf scores on a board for everyone to see and forced whoever wanted to know what the scores were to go check the individual cards of the players..................................



lmfao

I do hear what you are saying but to make a point I will be blunt.
Who are you to say the parse should be 5 minutes exactly?
I can put his parse length to 5 min and 27 seconds and it's about ~3390.
Taking a parse and cutting it at 5 min will just give whoever got lucky RNG at the 5 min mark have the highest parse. I personally don't really care if people clip the start of the parse, but I see a valid argument behind not doing so. But I see no reason to limit the time period to exactly 5 min.

Grimsblood's Avatar


Grimsblood
05.23.2013 , 12:39 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by rsuhandy View Post
I do hear what you are saying but to make a point I will be blunt.
Who are you to say the parse should be 5 minutes exactly?
I can put his parse length to 5 min and 27 seconds and it's about ~3390.
Taking a parse and cutting it at 5 min will just give whoever got lucky RNG at the 5 min mark have the highest parse. I personally don't really care if people clip the start of the parse, but I see a valid argument behind not doing so. But I see no reason to limit the time period to exactly 5 min.
I don't think it has to be 5 minutes; so long as everyone uses the same time frame. If that where to be 10 minutes or 7 minutes and 27.34 seconds it wouldn't matter to me. The point is, you can cut the log where you want to inflate the numbers.......that should not be happening (see my example above regarding golf for reason as to why it matters on a list such as this).
DPS is science. Healing is art. Tanking is strategy.
Hippolytà - Level 50 Sentinel - Grimsblood - Level 55 Sage
Saphyria - Level 55 Sniper - Fenrîr - Level 55 Gunslinger

rsuhandy's Avatar


rsuhandy
05.23.2013 , 12:39 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by paowee View Post
that is subjective. let me speak for most of the parsers and say, any change is a big change when it comes to DPS.

for pete's sakes people just DONT clip the beginning of the parse. the fight starts when you HIT the friggin dummy! jeez

*hey styrak my man, let us engage in combat but i ask you kindly please do not hit me until i have all my juyo stacks up!*

*hey terror from beyond dude! wasup brother? can i put my 3 dots and my armor pen and my EP on you first before i Cull and then we can start the figtht? im sry bro i need to put my dots up first in order to do damages. thanks budddy!*

ugh
You are right dps change is subjective.
I should have said 3-4 fold less of a dps increase than previously suggested.

paowee's Avatar


paowee
05.23.2013 , 12:42 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by rsuhandy View Post
You are right dps change is subjective.
I should have said 3-4 fold less of a dps increase than previously suggested.
Yeah i think 3 or 4 is little. But 18 not so much
Republic < Intrepid > The Harbinger slinger sage vanguard dps
swtorboard.org dps blog.class guides.end-game stuff
16 man | 8 man DPS leaderboards | Galactic Starfighter Records

rsuhandy's Avatar


rsuhandy
05.23.2013 , 12:44 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Grimsblood View Post
I don't think it has to be 5 minutes; so long as everyone uses the same time frame. If that where to be 10 minutes or 7 minutes and 27.34 seconds it wouldn't matter to me. The point is, you can cut the log where you want to inflate the numbers.......that should not be happening (see my example above regarding golf for reason as to why it matters on a list such as this).
I guess it depends on the goal of the thread.
I feel like trimming the parse to where you like gives less variability as people will post their highest dps.
If you are asking for ball park average numbers that a spec will pull over x amount of time then I would agree with you.
However that still doesn't prevent people from timing their biggest hits to land right at that time mark and inflating their dps.

If I understand your goal then I don't think setting a fixed time period will completely solve the problem although it would deflate dps numbers and be a better representation of what a class can pull.

I guess it depends on what you want to see.

rsuhandy's Avatar


rsuhandy
05.23.2013 , 12:45 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by paowee View Post
Yeah i think 3 or 4 is little. But 18 not so much
You're right I would also be happy if i got an 18 dps increase on my best parses.