This game needs a combat log/dmg meter tool

Well, another reason I assumed you were talking to me was because you were quoting me and then making a reply. If you don't want someone to assume you're speaking to them, then don't quote them or put disclaimers to let it be specifically known you're not talking directly to them to contradict a point.
Once again, I'm not talking about pugs. I'm talking about guild raids which is the only thing that matters to me as pugs are almost always going to have bads who are carried.
I never said that you "have to have a parser". All I said was that it's a great tool and far better than "watching" someone else. All I'm saying is that you're trying to trivialize dps meters by saying you can just watch the person. That is only the case when someone is blatantly worse... and, at best, is still a much weaker system than using a damage meter. It's like driving a car. I'm arguing for a speedometer and you're arguing the merits of having an experienced driver next to you telling you how fast you're going. It's silly because it's a harder system to have someone watch someone else and make guesstimates versus using an analytical tool.

I still don't get why you're arguing with me about that. I'm not arguing that watching someone is a bad tool... I'm arguing that a dps meter is a superior tool to help with ease of gathering analytical data to make adjustments.
I'm just going to say this again since you brought it up twice in the same post: I'm not talking about pugs. And in a pug I have neither the time nor the patience to waste teaching someone how to play their class. I'm not Marauder #1 in this game or on this server. I'm above-average, but that's it. I can help someone if they ask, but I will not sit there and tell them they're "doing it wrong". Those are just a few reasons why I typically do not pug anything.

I disagree a bit here. I personally hate real time tools precisely for the atmosphere they tend to create. Especially in this game, dps check are (usually) not that tight that the risk of failure is common. Combat parsers should be used as personal improvement tools, either real time or post-mortem, and as testing tool (for gear, rotations and specs).
Given how most operations work (raid often divided in two groups), it's not hard to find out who might have to work on their gear/rotations/spec. As a raid leader I'd rather have that handled by me than by anyone who looks at a parser.
And let's not even talk about what it could mean for FPs...

I feel compelled to point out that this particular argument with Kitru started in this post:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...51#post6338651

When you quoted him responding to another player: Aqqh. This other player was arguing on behalf of having enforced damage meters, usable in pugs. Which Kitru was arguing against.

That's why the waters are muddied here. You're not talking about enforced damage meters. And you're not talking about pugs. But you jumped in the middle of another argument that was.

Anyway.

The middle of what argument? Aqqh wasn't quoting anyone, but gave his own thoughts. Yes, he mentioned PUGs, but I never did. In fact, I even said in my very reply to his post that got this whole side ball rolling was:
So I was talking about guild runs. Not pugs.

Ugh... can't even believe we're dissecting this part of the discussion.

My point was more about the fact that I'm saying meters are a far better and easier tool than watching someone else. You don't need meters, but it's far better than making an arbitrary decision when you guess if someone is maximizing their performance. I do not think that watching someone else is a good supplement to meters.

we enraged all the times when a guy in tank gear was dps. can't imagine ''wrong'' tank gear

So, you don't understand why, in a thread that started with a complaint about a pug, in which the topic is demanding a damage meter that is enforced for pugs, people continue to talk about pugs, with barely a line or two tossed out to acknowledge that parsers should already be used for guild runs? Were you so focused on maximizing your dps that you couldn't see where people agreed with you and then continued on?

I guess you were just so focused on this side topic that you've completely missed the fact that I've repeatedly said they're not needed for pugs as well. That's not the issue with this side topic. The issue is that someone is saying that you can identify bad dps just by watching... which is why you don't need meters. And that's bull. You cannot always see bad dps just by watching people. That was a side argument that continues because there are people who are tunnel-visioning that topic.

I'll state my side directly again, since people cannot seem to follow along:
1 - This game already has programs for dps meters
2 - They are voluntary
3 - BW will probably never change how meters currently exist in that they won't make people who don't want to be reviewed by others not have to
4 - They're not needed in pugs
5 - You cannot always tell bad dps by watching them
6 - Meters are great tools, but used really for guild runs. There are instances where meters, along with any tool, are used in annoying ways, but don't blame meters. Blame the bad users for it.
7 - I have yet to see a good player refuse to join meters unless it's trivial content for guild runs.

6) the problem is raised when, with availability, meters become an excuse to blame (regardless of group success) people. Sure, it's the people doing the blaming, but you will always find that kind of people. Removing the root issue solves the problem and by making combat parsers available and voluntary, you have the best of both worlds. We already have this situation.

7) I have cleared almost all the content in the game so far (lacking just styrak hm atm), with multiple different groups, and that was true before 2.0 as well. If another form of combat parsers was to be added to swtor, I'd certainly refuse in all the manners I can to join such meter outside of guild environment. And inside the guild there's no need for it in the first place. Whatever use you can get out of the combat parser as a proofing tool is already provided by the current implementation.

Nobody here is saying that. You've misunderstood the position being made. That is what I was I was trying to point out to you in my earlier post.

You're on one side of an argument that doesn't have anybody on the other side arguing against you.

Aqqh was pushing for a Recount-type approach. In-game dps meters, rather than the opt-in combat logging that is already available for any sort of progression group, guild, or anyone that wants to use it.

Since mox, torparse, et. al. are not always available in a pug, he wanted the Recount-type approach. To find the "noskill" players. Responding to that, Kitru is saying:
and
Do you see? The point is NOT that you can "identify bad dps just by watching which is why you don't need meters". The point is that meters aren't REQUIRED IN A PUG to be able to identify bad dps.

It's NOT an argument against dps meters. It's an argument against always-on group-wide dps meters in a pug, as there is another solution to the problem of "who is the noskill"

P.S. If it isn't clear, I actually AGREE with the points you've been making. That's whats a little frustrating about this discussion. I believe it is a simple misunderstanding, not a disagreement, that is the cause of all this round-robin argumentation.

i have no clue what most of you are talking about with all those abbreviations to be honest. I just wanted to say that every time i get into a group i am bashed because i am not a genius at this game. I am a tank i guess but there is no room for error. How can someone expect me to be perfect at a game i have played maybe 1 week tops? Some people work for a living in real life and do not have time to learn every single thing about this game. So if someone is not doing well in a group don't damn them to hell try and help the person for once.