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Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

xxIncubixx's Avatar


xxIncubixx
05.20.2013 , 04:26 PM | #271
Quote: Originally Posted by Anysao View Post
Have you tried, you know, interupting the healers?...
this just proves how clueless people are on these forums.

Ghost_Spectre's Avatar


Ghost_Spectre
05.20.2013 , 04:27 PM | #272
Quote: Originally Posted by xxIncubixx View Post
this just proves how clueless people are on these forums.
No, really?

Laforet's Avatar


Laforet
05.20.2013 , 04:32 PM | #273
Quote: Originally Posted by xxIncubixx View Post
this just proves how clueless people are on these forums.
Interrupt without global or school silence just proves how clueless the people on the developers seat are.

4 seconds of global shutdown on heals for an interrupt would actually force healers to learn to play and finally draw a line between conscious healers and heal farm spammers.

Im a healer btw.
Believer - Seer - Fatman - RETIRED

SerikFox's Avatar


SerikFox
05.20.2013 , 04:37 PM | #274
Quote: Originally Posted by Ashuranrx View Post
Not true. Heals and damage are balanced. I had games where the opposing team has 3 healers and 1 tank and 4 DPS, and my team has 7 DPS and 1 tank, and we completely obliterated the opposing team because our DPS were superb.

If you lose a game to healers that means the DPS on your team was badly lacking.

Contrary to popular belief, playing a good DPS is just as hard as playing a good tank or a good healer. Carnage Marauder is the best healer killing spec, yet how often do you see Carnage in WZs? And how often you see a good Carnage in WZs?

Part of playing a good DPS is to learn how to focus fire, but most people don't do it. Heals are not OP, just that DPS need to learn to play better.
Despite lack of healer killing specific abilities, I'd actually put vigilance as the best healer killing spec. Once you get on a healer as vigilance, the only way to get you off is to kill you. Infiltration is also excellent at healer killing. The only problem killing people as carnage is that you get your face cc'd then ripped right off if the team knows how to defend their medic.

AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
05.21.2013 , 05:53 AM | #275
Quote: Originally Posted by MajinUltima View Post
Healers are a team role and get better in teams, they SHOULD be bad solo.
Which is exactly why I hated playing a Healer pre-2.0 - in an random battlefield consisting entirely with PUGs, randoms, zerging and NO TEAMPLAY.

In the end, I just stopped playing a Healer there. Because of the obvious reasons (too squishy in an non-teamplay zergfest zone).

Quote: Originally Posted by MotorCityMan View Post
They have those on your playstation.
Which might tell quite a thing about "the PC player" as such.

Kontraz's Avatar


Kontraz
05.21.2013 , 05:58 AM | #276
Quote: Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer View Post
Which is exactly why I hated playing a Healer pre-2.0 - in an random battlefield consisting entirely with PUGs, randoms, zerging and NO TEAMPLAY.

In the end, I just stopped playing a Healer there. Because of the obvious reasons (too squishy in an non-teamplay zergfest zone).



Which might tell quite a thing about "the PC player" as such.
I found the opposite to be true. In PUGs I realized quickly that most matches, we never had a healer and would just get crushed. So I started checking for healers, and if there weren't any I would field respect and we would do a lot better. Sure, it wasn't as fun, but it made the overall warzone more enjoyable.

AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
05.21.2013 , 06:04 AM | #277
Quote: Originally Posted by szombattams View Post
Then you are a bad healer.
So, how do you defend yourself from being defeated ?

Quote: Originally Posted by Kontraz View Post
I found the opposite to be true. In PUGs I realized quickly that most matches, we never had a healer and would just get crushed. So I started checking for healers, and if there weren't any I would field respect and we would do a lot better. Sure, it wasn't as fun, but it made the overall warzone more enjoyable.
To me, it was just too much. Everyone attacked the squishy healers first, of course, even ignoring tanks and everything else - I died a lot.

Had I had support back then, my experience would have been much more positive. But I just died too fast.

Nowadays, my Sage (my main Healer) (the one with having only light armor) is being experimentally played on battlefields again - and it has become kind of fun now. Of course I die, but I'm not that squishy anymore, and - what's more - I actually get at least *some* support nowadays !

But still - in random matches, there is still more zerging than teamplay (including support). I often get jumped at by some smashers - and then I die again, if I'm not fast enough.

So, to me, things have turned into a rather m,ore "fun" direction again. If there wasn't 2.0, then I still wouldn't play my Healer in PvP, far too squishy, imho.

kweassa's Avatar


kweassa
05.21.2013 , 06:21 AM | #278
Quote: Originally Posted by SerikFox View Post
Despite lack of healer killing specific abilities, I'd actually put vigilance as the best healer killing spec. Once you get on a healer as vigilance, the only way to get you off is to kill you. Infiltration is also excellent at healer killing. The only problem killing people as carnage is that you get your face cc'd then ripped right off if the team knows how to defend their medic.
In my case, I would contend that the Defense/Immortal Guardian/Jugg as the best healer-neuteriing class in the game.

Note that it's not necessarily "healer-busting", but rather "healer-neutering".

- Two stuns
- One AoE sleep,
- knockback
- Force Leap(which is by itself an interrupt, although not casting lock)
- an interrupt power
- that interrupt power finishing cooldown on Force Leap
- AoE slow that costs no resource and can be refreshed infinitely
- a "jump to friendly" power that also can be applied for offense usage
- resilient enough to withstand enemy DPS trying to clear their healer (provided you have your own heal support)

With enough support from smart teammates, a defense/immortal guardian/jugg can wreck havoc and scatter away the enemy healers and harass them to nearly non-potency in healing.

IMO, when a full-scale engagement starts, the Guardian/Jugg's job is dual - not only do they need to protect their own healer, but also they need to harass the enemy healer.

The basics of team-level combat would be the Guardian/Jugg charging in first, onto the enemy healers, in which case enemy DPS will switch targets to focus the Guardian/Jugg. The Guardian/Jugg activates defenses to survive the initial mass-alpha strike from enemy DPS, your own healer focuses heals on the Guardian/Jugg, and then your DPS start hitting the enemy DPS that's latched on to you (whom, as a reminder, will not be receiving much heals since the Guardians/Juggs of your team are harassing the enemy healers all day long)

The enemy DPS starts falling first, then the enemy tanks, and then soon only the healers are left, in which case, without protection, they become pretty easy pickings for your team.

This is the most ideal, and "basic" scenario to defeat enemy team with heals, and all tactical variations basically start from here. In terms of harassment, Guardians and Juggs are king.
"90% of PvP complaints come from people that are thoroughly unqualified to comment about anything in the first place. Stop assuming that you are a good player, then an answer will come; why you die so often, why you are CCd so often, and why you complain about healers so often - You're simply a bad player. Harsh truth."

MajinUltima's Avatar


MajinUltima
05.28.2013 , 08:11 AM | #279
Quote:
This thread seems to be so much focused on healers in a 1vs1 environment and the recurring objecion of pug players against pre-mades.
Not at all. Healers are overpowered in 1v1 (except maybe Merc/Commando) in that, even IF they lose, it takes SO long that 2-4 respawn timers have passed. Their performance scales UP in larger conflicts. So healers are overpowered in all senses. Healers should be terrible 1v1, they're a support role that is supposed to be heavily dependent on others.

It's not Pugs vs Premades that is the problem. Premades do disproprtionately stack healers or hybrid specs to carry them to easy wins that have nothing to do with coordination or skill though. Premades are fine, but premades notoriously stack whatever is the most overpowered at a given time and milk it, then attribute their wins to "skill" so as to feed their ego. Being able to play with friends and what-not is an important aspect of online gaming.

For example, your typical scoreboard results:
Max healing - 800k, not counting large amounts of overhealing
Max damage - 500k, typically with a lot of wasted AOE/multi-DOT inflation that was meditated off out of combat

Varies by warzone, duration of said warzone, level bracket, gear levels, etc but this is a common and ever-present example. What such a number doesn't show is that the healer isn't even taxing themself on output, whereas the damage dealer is expending every possible ounce of resource and inflation... to fall woefully short of healing output. DPS is constantly expending resources at the fastest sustainable rate, it's how the role plays. Healers aren't, most times they're barely even trying. Healer output in most circumstances is easily 2x damage output.

This game is broken, and max-level PVP is a thoroughly unpleasant experience. The only people who approve of the current situation are those exploiting the current situation... and sadly, they don't realize how foolish they are. Winning by explotiation may be "fun" for a while but it gets boring. Facing other exploiters in the dumbest stallfests possible... gets annoying and loses its appeal. It's not productive to a fun experience even for the players involved, but the free wins barely feed their ego enough for them to mistake it for fun.

Quote:
Since I was attacking the other door I asked what brilliant plan did we do to crack their defense, and the response was 'we had 3 guys capping the door from starting of the match and eventually one of them succeeded'. Games like that are becoming increasing common and I can't imagine them being very fun for anybody involved.
LOL This too. The gameplay is downright degenerate. So many Novare and ACW and Voidstar games boil down to who capped nodes first, because good luck capping much of anything once the match is in-progress. I've had far too many Novare and ACW matches where control of objectives didn't change all game long. Once an objective was captured, control never changed, so whoever got mid first auto-won because of the stallfest.

MajinUltima's Avatar


MajinUltima
05.28.2013 , 08:42 AM | #280
Quote:
Says you. So you get to decide which class is a "team role"? Aren't they all? Do you do flashpoints or ranked without a tank or dps?
LOL
I think that's about the extent of my response needed. Apparently Healer is a valid 1v1 "role" and not a team support role. You should outheal the enemy and defeat him with angry emotes, or something, I don't even know. This is one fo those things that's so silly that it just makes your brain implode trying to read it.

Quote:
Well let's reverse your assumed propositions. Dps is a team role. They cannot tank or heal and are entirely dependent upon other classes to be able to fulfill their function.
Not at all.
DPS = I see enemy, I can attack enemy.
Tank = Enemy sees me, I can endure enemy attacks.
Healer = Doesn't directly interact with the enemy, interacts with teammates.

Sure you can sit in a corner alone and heal yourself, but then... who are you healing? You may as well not even be healing if you're not healing the team. A comparison was made to flashpoints, so what good is a healer who only heals themself? What good is a dps that isn't attacking enemies? What good is a tank that isn't taking hits from enemies? A healer's use is dependent on healing the team, a healer without a team isn't doing anything and may as well not be there.

DPS and Tanks aren't dependent on allies present to perform their roles (that is not to say they don't have roles without allies present). Healers by definition don't have a role without allies present. DPS and Tanks don't have a role without enemies present. That is the difference between the roles.

Quote:
If you can't expect a healer or tank to kill 1 competent dps, then what happens when a 2nd dps gets involved?
A healer should die without a team. A healer shouldn't be beating a competent DPS and should not be delaying the competent DPS so much that multiple respawn phases pass. (It isn't uncommon for a healer to just plain win against DPS specs that cannot heal themselves though.) The healer and tank roles scale UP as more players get involved. A healer's survivability skyrockets with Guard on them, a tank's Taunt actually DOES something with other players involved.

A DPS will (barring AOE/DOTs) never be more than they were 1on1... they may live longer thanks to support roles, but their DPS output doesn't go up because a teammate is nearby (it may scale up from more ENEMIES to hit, but DPS output doesn't increase from allies being nearby, excluding some buffs/debuffs provided). I don't understand why there is so much anti-DPS bias, that DPS need to be nerfed to not be able to beat anyone who isn't DPS. Apparently DPS aren't supposed to be good at anything in any conflict size?

Quote:
But really, the only ones that deserve to be good at solo and team play are dps, right? And you say healers feel entitled?
DPS don't functionally scale up as conflict size increases. AOEs and mutli-DOTs increase damage a bit (though often at increased resource costs which is expensive on sustainability). Tanks scale up a bit, their Guard and Taunts become useful. Healers scale up more, damage is distributed among more targets at once, making healing easier (easier than healing just yourself alone, for example), guard and taunt effects as well as CC effects also inhibit damage done. Damage sustainability goes down as conflict size increases, healing becomes easier.

So if DPS can't win 1on1 (or can't win within a reasonable timeframe) and get worse as conflict size increases, what are DPS good at then?
Quote:
I don't believe that healers are doing 60% more than damage on average.
Which is too much, especially on an uninterruptable class like Operative/Scoundrel, when damage gets scaled down so much by CCs and Taunts, while healing doesn't. Taunting doesn't make healing heal for less. CCs don't stop HOTs. Interrupts sure stop your Lightning Strike or Grav Round, but it's pretty one-sided when you have nothing to interrupt in return. Most DOTs are cheaper to dispel (which is itself talent into a cost-effective heal on top of the debuff remove) than the dispel is to cast, but HOTs aren't dispellable. Damage already scales down with conflict size while healing becomes easier.

Put these factors together and, even giving you the 60% in a vacuum as a freebie... it quickly scales to a 2x or more margin in an actual pvp environment.