Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Juggernaut Tank - what rotation works for you?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Juggernaut Tank - what rotation works for you?
 

JouerTue's Avatar


JouerTue
04.20.2013 , 06:11 AM | #11
now force jump,
sabre reflect
profit

Fallerup's Avatar


Fallerup
05.19.2013 , 05:12 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by JouerTue View Post
now force jump,
sabre reflect
profit
not really no... sure saber reflect is awesome, but if you only build threat for 5 seconds every minute, a marauder will pull aggro off you, trust me... maybe even a pyrotech too.

I just tanked in TFB SM and I had almost no issues. I didn't even guard "the usual suspects" (Marauders) sometimes when I was tanking. my only problem was the tentacles in phase 1 of last boss, but they reset aggro, thats why.

congrats on fixing juggernaut threat generation bioware! now boost it to the same level as assassin and I'll be very happy, but imo, it is good the way it is now too.
Gagota Class: Arsenal Mercenary
Member Of
Dark Brotherhood
Server: Tomb Of Freedon nadd EU

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
05.19.2013 , 05:36 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Fallerup View Post
my only problem was the tentacles in phase 1 of last boss, but they reset aggro, thats why.
They don't reset aggro. You just have to start from scratch every time a tentacle spawns. DPS, especially marauders, tend to require a bit of a build up time, and they don't require it for any tentacles beyond the first since they've already got that build up. You're just not as great as threat gen as you seem to think you are (I haven't had the slightest bit of a problem with it and neither have the Guardians or VGs I've run with), and/or your DPS is especially good at DPS.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
05.19.2013 , 06:04 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Fallerup View Post
not really no... sure saber reflect is awesome, but if you only build threat for 5 seconds every minute, a marauder will pull aggro off you, trust me... maybe even a pyrotech too.

I just tanked in TFB SM and I had almost no issues. I didn't even guard "the usual suspects" (Marauders) sometimes when I was tanking. my only problem was the tentacles in phase 1 of last boss, but they reset aggro, thats why.

congrats on fixing juggernaut threat generation bioware! now boost it to the same level as assassin and I'll be very happy, but imo, it is good the way it is now too.
Saber Reflect really is THAT awesome. It gives you over 8000 threat on everything you're in combat with when you activate it. It's off the GCD and multiplies all reflected damage by your stance modifier. There are literally pulls where I can leap in, hit reflect, type /sit and just watch things die to my DPS without losing aggro. Even without Reflecting anything its still a huge load of threat early on and unless there is some need to hold it for a mechanic there is NO reason not to use it on your opener.

As Kitru mentioned, the tentacles don't reset aggro but each new pair has a different threat table so you're starting from scratch each time. Unless your timing is very good, most DPS are also starting from (relative) scratch as well though, so you should be fine. They may have a couple of procs and a little extra Fous when they get back in but the downtime is long enough for plenty of stuff to expire and it to be more like starting a new fight than an aggro wipe.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

Fallerup's Avatar


Fallerup
05.19.2013 , 10:11 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
They don't reset aggro. You just have to start from scratch every time a tentacle spawns. DPS, especially marauders, tend to require a bit of a build up time, and they don't require it for any tentacles beyond the first since they've already got that build up. You're just not as great as threat gen as you seem to think you are (I haven't had the slightest bit of a problem with it and neither have the Guardians or VGs I've run with), and/or your DPS is especially good at DPS.
yeah I do need practise, haven't tanked on my juggernaut for a long time now, since I've been using it for PvP. I was told by one of our main tanks that these arms do reset aggro, which is why, even as an assassin/shadow tank I was standing there tanking and suddenly lost it. And as you know (being a shadow tank n all), that is impossible unless your dps are extra good (or over gearing you by miles) or they actually did dump it. That might have been changed, its been a while since I tanked last boss in TFB so.
Gagota Class: Arsenal Mercenary
Member Of
Dark Brotherhood
Server: Tomb Of Freedon nadd EU

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
05.19.2013 , 11:14 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Fallerup View Post
That might have been changed, its been a while since I tanked last boss in TFB so.
I've been tanking it both before and after 2.0. There isn't an aggro drop and there never has been. The issue only occurs, in my experience, to tanks that normally have to rely on taunt fluffing (who are also the tanks that *lose* aggro early on in a fight) because Taunt is only effective at fluffing when you're on a target that you've already built up a decent bit of threat on. Since each tentacle is a new threat table, the tanks that rely on fluffing rather than their own threat generation lose threat all the time because they have to start over each time. When you've got DPS that are prepped to go right from the start, if you're a tank that has problems with threat (though I wonder how that can be with the current state of tanks), you're going to have problems on the tentacles. It has nothing to do with threat drops and everything to do with the players. Like I said, either your DPS are amazing, your threat generation is terrible, or both. Mechanically, the tentacles are no different than anything else.

What you may want to try doing, since Focus doesn't degenerate while you're dodging the adds, is not bothering to leap to the tentacle. Learn where it's going to pop up (the first and third tents will pop up in the central location and the seconds and fourth will pop up on the outer locations, and it's the same spots every time) and stand right on top of it in order to start wailing on it with legitimate threat generators rather than trying to open with Saber Throw and Force Leap, which are both good Focus generators but terrible damage/threat abilities. If you use ST and Leap to get Focus, learn to use Combat Focus more or, if it's down, use Saber Throw on one of the adds (preferably the ones that spawn and start running to you). Even better, take some time when the tents are about to die to ease up on your DPS/threat generation (since your threat cushion should be so large the DPS will be incapable of generating enough threat to pull aggro before it dies) to build up to 12 Focus (i.e. spam Strike) so that you'll be at max Focus to open up a massive can of threat whoopass as soon as the tent spawns without needing to generating any Focus until *after* you've built up a threat cushion your DPS will marvel at.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

WillLongstick's Avatar


WillLongstick
05.20.2013 , 01:09 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I've been tanking it both before and after 2.0. There isn't an aggro drop and there never has been. The issue only occurs, in my experience, to tanks that normally have to rely on taunt fluffing (who are also the tanks that *lose* aggro early on in a fight) because Taunt is only effective at fluffing when you're on a target that you've already built up a decent bit of threat on. Since each tentacle is a new threat table, the tanks that rely on fluffing rather than their own threat generation lose threat all the time because they have to start over each time.
I think I'll take it from here having played the rage starved, taunt fluffing pre-2.0 Hybrid Jugg.

A) The only way taunt fluffing is ever bad is if a tank swap is anticipated. You have to have your single target up when Toth jumps, the Jealous Male comes out, etc. Even still, most of those fights you can fluff your aggro with a taunt and AOE taunt and have your single target taunt up in time again.

B) If you're waiting 7-9 seconds from your intial attacks until your first taunt you will not get pulled off. If you lead off with taunt > attacking, then you just wasted your taunt and will get pulled off.

C) If you aren't expecting a tank swap and you aren't taunt fluffing, then you're grossly under using your biggest aggro ability. There's a difference between holding aggro, and holding it so high that you could stop attacking for the remaining 5 minutes of the fight and not lose it. The latter has its perks when something ****ed up (read: DPS did stupid).

D) The hardest tentacle to pull on the Terror is the first one. Taunt fluff it (don't stand too close to the other one when you AOE taunt), and try to finish it off with 6+ Rage. Always jump to new tentacles, it's a gap closer for a reason. If you have 6+ Rage already, you really don't need Saber Throw in your opener.

E) I used to perpetually Saber Throw bosses/adds I wasn't on to gain Rage in the Hybrid. It's not necessary now, unless you're spamming Viscous Slash you will be swimming in rage now. Still, if you're low on rage, you've established aggro on the boss you're on, and you have a target within 30m (doesn't even need to be one you can damage), then it doesn't hurt to Saber Throw for Rage. It can actually make a difference on a fight like NiM Tanks though, where there's a tight enrage timer and all DPS increases on either boss are important.

To the OP's question (though it's now dated), I've been working on the smoothest opener with the most front end threat, and while I'm not 100% satisfied with it (playing with the positioning of Backhand, Smash, and Ravage mostly), it works really well:

Saber Throw > Force Jump + Enrage > Crushing Blow + Retaliation > Force Scream > Backhand > Taunt then Ravage > Smash > Sundering Assault > Crushing Blow + Retaliation > Force Scream then AOE Taunt.

At this point you're 16.5 seconds into the fight with firm aggro, most big attacks on CD, and 1 rage (assuming no Revenge procs, you may find yourself with ~6 rage here). The best way to go from here is to hit Force Choke to start ticking up rage, and depending on your Revenge procs either dump excess rage with Viscous Slash, or Assault to build rage. You'll have 3 filler attacks after Force Choke, at which point it's Smash > Sunder > Crushing Blow + Retaliation > Force Scream again.

Your single target taunt will be up when your AOE taunt falls off. If you want to use Saber Reflect for aggro (maybe you want to save it as a CD), then use it early as soon as the boss starts hitting you, but before your first taunt.
Gorthog - Amelthea

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
05.20.2013 , 01:35 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
I think I'll take it from here having played the rage starved, taunt fluffing pre-2.0 Hybrid Jugg.
I played a pure Def Guardian pre-2.0 which was worse for threat than the Hybrid and I still didn't have threat problems. Generally, the biggest problem most people had was not being able to generate and spend Focus efficiently.

Quote:
A) The only way taunt fluffing is ever bad is if a tank swap is anticipated.
I see taunt fluffing as a bad thing because it allows tanks to get away with terrible normal threat generation. Any tank, good or bad, can keep threat by taunt fluffing. Especially with the threat buff and gear reset that came with 2.0, a good tank can keep threat off of absolutely anything without ever touching taunt, and you'll only become a good tank when you force yourself to no longer rely on taunt fluffing to do the job of your threat generation.

If you absolutely *have* to taunt fluff, I have no problem with it, but if you rely on it all the time, you really need to reevaluate how you play so that you can fix your threat problems. Even when you're dealing with overgeared DPS, any tank that knows how to generate threat should have no problem keeping aggro without ever having to use it. Taunt should only really be used when you have an explicit threat drop or tank swap. In any other situation, it's largely redundant (as it should be).
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
05.20.2013 , 02:22 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by WillLongstick View Post
I think I'll take it from here having played the rage starved, taunt fluffing pre-2.0 Hybrid Jugg.
/wave. I wrote the book on Guardian tanking, see the link in my sig. I also ran the pre-2.0 Focus starved Hybrid Guardian WITHOUT relying on taunt fluffing.

Quote:
A) The only way taunt fluffing is ever bad is if a tank swap is anticipated. You have to have your single target up when Toth jumps, the Jealous Male comes out, etc. Even still, most of those fights you can fluff your aggro with a taunt and AOE taunt and have your single target taunt up in time again.
I am against taunt fluffing. Learn to build aggro without it and you're in a much better position when fluffing isn't available. Trust me.

Quote:
C) If you aren't expecting a tank swap and you aren't taunt fluffing, then you're grossly under using your biggest aggro ability. There's a difference between holding aggro, and holding it so high that you could stop attacking for the remaining 5 minutes of the fight and not lose it. The latter has its perks when something ****ed up (read: DPS did stupid).
The only advantage of building a massive threat lead pre-2.0 with the Hybrid was it allowed you to Focus on your survivability and just ignore threat generation when you were Focus starved. Post 2.0 there is no need what so ever. If you stop attacking you end up hurting your survivability thanks to Blade Barrier, Blade Barricade and Guardian Slash.

[/quote]D) The hardest tentacle to pull on the Terror is the first one. Taunt fluff it (don't stand too close to the other one when you AOE taunt), and try to finish it off with 6+ Rage. Always jump to new tentacles, it's a gap closer for a reason. If you have 6+ Rage already, you really don't need Saber Throw in your opener.[/quote]

Saber Throw is an excellent ability and there is no reason not to use it. If your DPS can't wait for you to Leap in you might want to teach THEM about how to be a good DPS. I've got my DPS trained that once I Leap, they can follow and unload as much as they want. If they attack first I'm not taunting off them. Aside from it really not being needed thanks to tank threat generation, 30-50% of their health is a really good wake up call not to do it again.

Quote:
E) I used to perpetually Saber Throw bosses/adds I wasn't on to gain Rage in the Hybrid. It's not necessary now, unless you're spamming Viscous Slash you will be swimming in rage now. Still, if you're low on rage, you've established aggro on the boss you're on, and you have a target within 30m (doesn't even need to be one you can damage), then it doesn't hurt to Saber Throw for Rage. It can actually make a difference on a fight like NiM Tanks though, where there's a tight enrage timer and all DPS increases on either boss are important.
There is no reason not to these days. Its one of our harder hitting abilities and generates 3 Focus which means less Strikes. I would put it above Slash on the priority if its available.

Quote:
To the OP's question (though it's now dated), I've been working on the smoothest opener with the most front end threat, and while I'm not 100% satisfied with it (playing with the positioning of Backhand, Smash, and Ravage mostly), it works really well:

Saber Throw > Force Jump + Enrage > Crushing Blow + Retaliation > Force Scream > Backhand > Taunt then Ravage > Smash > Sundering Assault > Crushing Blow + Retaliation > Force Scream then AOE Taunt.
Try Throw -> Leap (+ Saber Reflect unless you need to save it) -> Sundering Strike -> Guardian Slash + Riposte -> Blade Storm -> Master Strike (+taunt if you want to fluff) -> Sweep -> Hilt Strike -> Stasis.

Sets up your rotation for later on and generates a tonne of threat off the bat.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

wainot-keel's Avatar


wainot-keel
05.20.2013 , 08:48 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
Saber Reflect really is THAT awesome. It gives you over 8000 threat on everything you're in combat with when you activate it. It's off the GCD and multiplies all reflected damage by your stance modifier. There are literally pulls where I can leap in, hit reflect, type /sit and just watch things die to my DPS without losing aggro. Even without Reflecting anything its still a huge load of threat early on and unless there is some need to hold it for a mechanic there is NO reason not to use it on your opener.
lol, like that cantina in cademimu. you enter combat -> saber reflect. done.

anyway, if you have biochem, i'd suggest getting the reusable with accuracy. when pulling a boss and dps are blowing theirs cds, you really dont want to miss anything. i've seen my backhand and crushing blow miss in a row