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Juggernaut Tank - what rotation works for you?


Darth_Caedes

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Hello Tanking Community,

 

I've been playing around more with my juggernaut and I'm having issues with holding threat at the beginning of a fight. After the first 15 seconds or so everything is fine over time, but as we got more dps with high burst dps it can become tricky for me. I looked around on the forum and everything I can find is older than what I would like. What seems to work for you all? My stats and rotation priority are as following:

 

30% DEF - 50/50 Shield/Absorb - 27.5k health - 1600 strength

 

Engaging - Saber Throw - Leap

Initial Rotation - Backhand > Smash > Sundering Assault > Crushing Blow

Priority - Retaliation > Force Screen > Ravage > Force Choke

Enrage on CD and Vicious Slash when I have too much rage

 

Any pointers or does anyone have something better that works for them?

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I find it better to use enrage when needed rather then use it pre-emptively (its off the GCD), as sometimes you will have enough stacks of revenge to carry you through to the second sunder, and using back hand and force choke will push you further in, letting you save enrage to get in some vicious slashes during the deadzone of everything being on CD.

 

Its not a big deal within the first few global cooldowns, if dps spike up (which they will) those first moments of a pull can be scary. It will also really depend on the boss you're fighting (stormcaller is a flatout pain in the arse for immortal).

 

Just focus on perfecting your initial opener and have taunt ready. I find it best to boost after the first full sunder cycle (so sunder>scream>crushing blow[taunt]). You may also consider grabbing some power adrenals, and / or looking at the hybrid build if you feel up to it (though I don't think hybrid will help you if your only having short-term threat problems on the first few gcd's of a pull).

Edited by Marb
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  • 4 weeks later...

I'm currently running a Guardian, so I know what you mean. However, I find bosses to be laughably easy to tank (much as they were for Warriors in WoW). The real problem with guard/jugg tanking is ranged trash mobs, especially when there are more than a couple of them or they are spread out. Force Push is not what you would call accurate by any stretch of the imagination, and getting in position to bring the mobs together is easier said than done.

 

For bosses, my opening rotation usually follows:

 

Saber throw, force leap, blade storm, master strike, sunder, followed by the usual priority system. Master strike and blade storm are both some of the highest damaging attacks we have, which helps stave off the opening burst of dps.

 

For groups of mobs, my first priority is landing at least one hit on every enemy in the group, trying to group as many together as i can, then going into the regular aoe priority.

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Hello Tanking Community,

 

I've been playing around more with my juggernaut and I'm having issues with holding threat at the beginning of a fight. After the first 15 seconds or so everything is fine over time, but as we got more dps with high burst dps it can become tricky for me. I looked around on the forum and everything I can find is older than what I would like. What seems to work for you all? My stats and rotation priority are as following:

 

30% DEF - 50/50 Shield/Absorb - 27.5k health - 1600 strength

 

Engaging - Saber Throw - Leap

Initial Rotation - Backhand > Smash > Sundering Assault > Crushing Blow

Priority - Retaliation > Force Screen > Ravage > Force Choke

Enrage on CD and Vicious Slash when I have too much rage

 

Any pointers or does anyone have something better that works for them?

 

With 2.0 on the way if i were you i would start like this:

 

Saber Throw> Charge> Smash(20% Armor reduction)>Sundering Assault or Enrage>Crushing Blow>Retaliation>Scream>Taunt> Backhand>Ravage>Repeat with fillers.

 

With 2.0 smash, scream, crushing blow and sundering assault are on 12 second cooldowns , and sundering produces 6 rage. Crushing blow, scream and sweeping slash all cost 1 less rage, retaliation procs off crushing blow as well as defense.

 

Rage management is cleaned up further and with the 12 second cooldown on the main ablities its easy to line all your buffs, debuffs and defenses in a row.

Edited by GalenMourne
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With 2.0 on the way if i were you i would start like this:

 

Saber Throw> Charge> Smash(20% Armor reduction)>Sundering Assault or Enrage>Crushing Blow>Retaliation>Scream>Taunt> Backhand>Ravage>Repeat with fillers.

 

With 2.0 smash, scream, crushing blow and sundering assault are on 12 second cooldowns , and sundering produces 6 rage. Crushing blow, scream and sweeping slash all cost 1 less rage, retaliation procs off crushing blow as well as defense.

 

Rage management is cleaned up further and with the 12 second cooldown on the main ablities its easy to line all your buffs, debuffs and defenses in a row.

 

I would not use Sundering Assault after Smash. You need to hit the target with Crushing Blow ASAP. Opening should be:

 

Saber Throw > Charge > Smash > Crushing Blow > Sundering Assault

 

You do not need to stack Smash and Sundering Assault anymore for armor debuff.

You should have enough rage to do this opening rotation.

If you do it right, you rarely, if ever, need to use Enrage.

Retaliation should be used whenever it is up. It should not be part of your rotation.

If you are using Taunt in your rotation, then you are doing something wrong. I have had zero threat problems in Hard Mode Scum and Villiany with PT dps pulling close to 3k.

Same goes with Backhand. It is a great threat ability off cooldown, but it is not nescessary anymore.

People forget that Force Scream is a mini cooldown and should not nescessarily be used off cooldown.

Force Choke, Ravage, Force Push, Vicious Slash, Vicious Throw, and Backhand are all filler abilities that are used based on your rage pool.

 

As for AoE pulls that are not melee or AoE damage based:

 

Threatening Scream > Saber Reflect > AFK

 

The 12 sec rotation, rage reduction on our main abilities, and increased damage/threat output have completely changed the Jugg/Guard tank to be viable over other tanks in various situations.

Edited by twosixnineone
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I'm just going to share my opinion. :)

 

I'm a lefty, don't keybind, because it's quite difficult being lefthanded. (Though I have gotten some suggestions.)

 

I recently have tanked EV and KP perfectly fine with no set rotation/ key binds. It just takes knowing your abilities and such. Just interrupt, interrupt, interrupt.

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I would not use Sundering Assault after Smash. You need to hit the target with Crushing Blow ASAP. Opening should be:

 

Saber Throw > Charge > Smash > Crushing Blow > Sundering Assault

 

This was an opening setup. It had an order for a reason. I said Sundering or enrage to set up rage for whole opening, not stacks. Putting sundering in is to set up your rotation for the entire fight by having your rage builder right before crushing blow. Enrage being used is the better option because it is off the global cooldown, and then saving sundering for when crushing blow comes off cooldown. I wrote my post expecting that people where smart and could figure out what to fill in where. It was also set to maximize threat in the beginning when dps are most likely to pull off you.

 

 

You do not need to stack Smash and Sundering Assault anymore for armor debuff.

 

See above

 

Retaliation should be used whenever it is up. It should not be part of your rotation.

 

I was giving an opening order. And or course retaliation should be used when its up. What i posted is 100% correct since crushing blow procs retaliation.

 

If you are using Taunt in your rotation, then you are doing something wrong. I have had zero threat problems in

Hard Mode Scum and Villiany with PT dps pulling close to 3k.

 

Again i discussed an opening setup. Taunting in the beginning to increase threat is smart. And taunt is your most powerful threat tool, and it cost nothing. I never said taunt on cooldown, but if you feel you have to insult people to feel special you keep on doing that.

 

Same goes with Backhand. It is a great threat ability off cooldown, but it is not nescessary anymore.

 

Here you go again telling people not to use a threat tool because it is unnecessary. Doesn't matter how insignificant the threat is on it, it is free.

 

People forget that Force Scream is a mini cooldown and should not nescessarily be used off cooldown.

 

Putting 6 seconds between smash and scream maximizes revenge stacks for rage management. i use it roughly every 12 secs, not as a mini cooldown. Depending on a boss there are points where it is best used to help mitigate, but to hold back on it is stupid and is increasing the damage you take over the whole fight.

 

Force Choke, Ravage, Force Push, Vicious Slash, Vicious Throw, and Backhand are all filler abilities that are used based on your rage pool.

 

Thank you for educating me on what my class fillers are, i wouldn't have known otherwise. Such a big help.

Edited by GalenMourne
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Taunting in the beginning to increase threat is smart. And taunt is your most powerful threat tool, and it cost nothing.

 

Unless there is a tank swap early in the fight, like Toth/Zorn. Burning all your high threat attacks and then taunt fluffing your threat might leave you up the creek sans paddle when the swap comes. It's a good idea to work taunt out of rotations whenever possible.

 

You make some really great points otherwise, and normally I wouldn't have said anything, but you were just such a monumental douche to this guy.

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Hello Tanking Community,

 

OP, your rotation looks fine. Make sure you are guarding the right dps, and the other guys are using their threat drops. It sounds like you have some very eager, bursty dps who don't understand how or why to throttle back, especially at the beginning of a fight. Make sure they are giving you a few seconds.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Saber throw, Leap(for focus), Hilt strike(hight treath move), Sundering strike(armor debuff), Guardian slash(in use with the armor debuff guardian slash becomes an hight treath ability), Taunt+Riposte+Bladestorm(Taunt and Riposte are not on thee global cooldown so you can use them at the same time. Also using your taunt after some hight treath ability's will tauntboost you.), Sweep/smash(reduced accuracy).
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  • 5 weeks later...
now force jump,

sabre reflect

profit

 

not really no... sure saber reflect is awesome, but if you only build threat for 5 seconds every minute, a marauder will pull aggro off you, trust me... maybe even a pyrotech too.

 

I just tanked in TFB SM and I had almost no issues. I didn't even guard "the usual suspects" (Marauders) sometimes when I was tanking. my only problem was the tentacles in phase 1 of last boss, but they reset aggro, thats why.

 

congrats on fixing juggernaut threat generation bioware! now boost it to the same level as assassin and I'll be very happy, but imo, it is good the way it is now too.

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my only problem was the tentacles in phase 1 of last boss, but they reset aggro, thats why.

 

They don't reset aggro. You just have to start from scratch every time a tentacle spawns. DPS, especially marauders, tend to require a bit of a build up time, and they don't require it for any tentacles beyond the first since they've already got that build up. You're just not as great as threat gen as you seem to think you are (I haven't had the slightest bit of a problem with it and neither have the Guardians or VGs I've run with), and/or your DPS is especially good at DPS.

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not really no... sure saber reflect is awesome, but if you only build threat for 5 seconds every minute, a marauder will pull aggro off you, trust me... maybe even a pyrotech too.

 

I just tanked in TFB SM and I had almost no issues. I didn't even guard "the usual suspects" (Marauders) sometimes when I was tanking. my only problem was the tentacles in phase 1 of last boss, but they reset aggro, thats why.

 

congrats on fixing juggernaut threat generation bioware! now boost it to the same level as assassin and I'll be very happy, but imo, it is good the way it is now too.

 

Saber Reflect really is THAT awesome. It gives you over 8000 threat on everything you're in combat with when you activate it. It's off the GCD and multiplies all reflected damage by your stance modifier. There are literally pulls where I can leap in, hit reflect, type /sit and just watch things die to my DPS without losing aggro. Even without Reflecting anything its still a huge load of threat early on and unless there is some need to hold it for a mechanic there is NO reason not to use it on your opener.

 

As Kitru mentioned, the tentacles don't reset aggro but each new pair has a different threat table so you're starting from scratch each time. Unless your timing is very good, most DPS are also starting from (relative) scratch as well though, so you should be fine. They may have a couple of procs and a little extra Fous when they get back in but the downtime is long enough for plenty of stuff to expire and it to be more like starting a new fight than an aggro wipe.

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They don't reset aggro. You just have to start from scratch every time a tentacle spawns. DPS, especially marauders, tend to require a bit of a build up time, and they don't require it for any tentacles beyond the first since they've already got that build up. You're just not as great as threat gen as you seem to think you are (I haven't had the slightest bit of a problem with it and neither have the Guardians or VGs I've run with), and/or your DPS is especially good at DPS.

 

yeah I do need practise, haven't tanked on my juggernaut for a long time now, since I've been using it for PvP. I was told by one of our main tanks that these arms do reset aggro, which is why, even as an assassin/shadow tank I was standing there tanking and suddenly lost it. And as you know (being a shadow tank n all), that is impossible unless your dps are extra good (or over gearing you by miles) or they actually did dump it. That might have been changed, its been a while since I tanked last boss in TFB so.

Edited by Fallerup
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That might have been changed, its been a while since I tanked last boss in TFB so.

 

I've been tanking it both before and after 2.0. There isn't an aggro drop and there never has been. The issue only occurs, in my experience, to tanks that normally have to rely on taunt fluffing (who are also the tanks that *lose* aggro early on in a fight) because Taunt is only effective at fluffing when you're on a target that you've already built up a decent bit of threat on. Since each tentacle is a new threat table, the tanks that rely on fluffing rather than their own threat generation lose threat all the time because they have to start over each time. When you've got DPS that are prepped to go right from the start, if you're a tank that has problems with threat (though I wonder how that can be with the current state of tanks), you're going to have problems on the tentacles. It has nothing to do with threat drops and everything to do with the players. Like I said, either your DPS are amazing, your threat generation is terrible, or both. Mechanically, the tentacles are no different than anything else.

 

What you may want to try doing, since Focus doesn't degenerate while you're dodging the adds, is not bothering to leap to the tentacle. Learn where it's going to pop up (the first and third tents will pop up in the central location and the seconds and fourth will pop up on the outer locations, and it's the same spots every time) and stand right on top of it in order to start wailing on it with legitimate threat generators rather than trying to open with Saber Throw and Force Leap, which are both good Focus generators but terrible damage/threat abilities. If you use ST and Leap to get Focus, learn to use Combat Focus more or, if it's down, use Saber Throw on one of the adds (preferably the ones that spawn and start running to you). Even better, take some time when the tents are about to die to ease up on your DPS/threat generation (since your threat cushion should be so large the DPS will be incapable of generating enough threat to pull aggro before it dies) to build up to 12 Focus (i.e. spam Strike) so that you'll be at max Focus to open up a massive can of threat whoopass as soon as the tent spawns without needing to generating any Focus until *after* you've built up a threat cushion your DPS will marvel at.

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I've been tanking it both before and after 2.0. There isn't an aggro drop and there never has been. The issue only occurs, in my experience, to tanks that normally have to rely on taunt fluffing (who are also the tanks that *lose* aggro early on in a fight) because Taunt is only effective at fluffing when you're on a target that you've already built up a decent bit of threat on. Since each tentacle is a new threat table, the tanks that rely on fluffing rather than their own threat generation lose threat all the time because they have to start over each time.

 

I think I'll take it from here having played the rage starved, taunt fluffing pre-2.0 Hybrid Jugg.

 

A) The only way taunt fluffing is ever bad is if a tank swap is anticipated. You have to have your single target up when Toth jumps, the Jealous Male comes out, etc. Even still, most of those fights you can fluff your aggro with a taunt and AOE taunt and have your single target taunt up in time again.

 

B) If you're waiting 7-9 seconds from your intial attacks until your first taunt you will not get pulled off. If you lead off with taunt > attacking, then you just wasted your taunt and will get pulled off.

 

C) If you aren't expecting a tank swap and you aren't taunt fluffing, then you're grossly under using your biggest aggro ability. There's a difference between holding aggro, and holding it so high that you could stop attacking for the remaining 5 minutes of the fight and not lose it. The latter has its perks when something ****ed up (read: DPS did stupid).

 

D) The hardest tentacle to pull on the Terror is the first one. Taunt fluff it (don't stand too close to the other one when you AOE taunt), and try to finish it off with 6+ Rage. Always jump to new tentacles, it's a gap closer for a reason. If you have 6+ Rage already, you really don't need Saber Throw in your opener.

 

E) I used to perpetually Saber Throw bosses/adds I wasn't on to gain Rage in the Hybrid. It's not necessary now, unless you're spamming Viscous Slash you will be swimming in rage now. Still, if you're low on rage, you've established aggro on the boss you're on, and you have a target within 30m (doesn't even need to be one you can damage), then it doesn't hurt to Saber Throw for Rage. It can actually make a difference on a fight like NiM Tanks though, where there's a tight enrage timer and all DPS increases on either boss are important.

 

To the OP's question (though it's now dated), I've been working on the smoothest opener with the most front end threat, and while I'm not 100% satisfied with it (playing with the positioning of Backhand, Smash, and Ravage mostly), it works really well:

 

Saber Throw > Force Jump + Enrage > Crushing Blow + Retaliation > Force Scream > Backhand > Taunt then Ravage > Smash > Sundering Assault > Crushing Blow + Retaliation > Force Scream then AOE Taunt.

 

At this point you're 16.5 seconds into the fight with firm aggro, most big attacks on CD, and 1 rage (assuming no Revenge procs, you may find yourself with ~6 rage here). The best way to go from here is to hit Force Choke to start ticking up rage, and depending on your Revenge procs either dump excess rage with Viscous Slash, or Assault to build rage. You'll have 3 filler attacks after Force Choke, at which point it's Smash > Sunder > Crushing Blow + Retaliation > Force Scream again.

 

Your single target taunt will be up when your AOE taunt falls off. If you want to use Saber Reflect for aggro (maybe you want to save it as a CD), then use it early as soon as the boss starts hitting you, but before your first taunt.

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I think I'll take it from here having played the rage starved, taunt fluffing pre-2.0 Hybrid Jugg.

 

I played a pure Def Guardian pre-2.0 which was worse for threat than the Hybrid and I still didn't have threat problems. Generally, the biggest problem most people had was not being able to generate and spend Focus efficiently.

 

A) The only way taunt fluffing is ever bad is if a tank swap is anticipated.

 

I see taunt fluffing as a bad thing because it allows tanks to get away with terrible normal threat generation. Any tank, good or bad, can keep threat by taunt fluffing. Especially with the threat buff and gear reset that came with 2.0, a good tank can keep threat off of absolutely anything without ever touching taunt, and you'll only become a good tank when you force yourself to no longer rely on taunt fluffing to do the job of your threat generation.

 

If you absolutely *have* to taunt fluff, I have no problem with it, but if you rely on it all the time, you really need to reevaluate how you play so that you can fix your threat problems. Even when you're dealing with overgeared DPS, any tank that knows how to generate threat should have no problem keeping aggro without ever having to use it. Taunt should only really be used when you have an explicit threat drop or tank swap. In any other situation, it's largely redundant (as it should be).

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I think I'll take it from here having played the rage starved, taunt fluffing pre-2.0 Hybrid Jugg.

 

/wave. I wrote the book on Guardian tanking, see the link in my sig. I also ran the pre-2.0 Focus starved Hybrid Guardian WITHOUT relying on taunt fluffing.

 

A) The only way taunt fluffing is ever bad is if a tank swap is anticipated. You have to have your single target up when Toth jumps, the Jealous Male comes out, etc. Even still, most of those fights you can fluff your aggro with a taunt and AOE taunt and have your single target taunt up in time again.

 

I am against taunt fluffing. Learn to build aggro without it and you're in a much better position when fluffing isn't available. Trust me.

 

C) If you aren't expecting a tank swap and you aren't taunt fluffing, then you're grossly under using your biggest aggro ability. There's a difference between holding aggro, and holding it so high that you could stop attacking for the remaining 5 minutes of the fight and not lose it. The latter has its perks when something ****ed up (read: DPS did stupid).

 

The only advantage of building a massive threat lead pre-2.0 with the Hybrid was it allowed you to Focus on your survivability and just ignore threat generation when you were Focus starved. Post 2.0 there is no need what so ever. If you stop attacking you end up hurting your survivability thanks to Blade Barrier, Blade Barricade and Guardian Slash.

 

D) The hardest tentacle to pull on the Terror is the first one. Taunt fluff it (don't stand too close to the other one when you AOE taunt), and try to finish it off with 6+ Rage. Always jump to new tentacles, it's a gap closer for a reason. If you have 6+ Rage already, you really don't need Saber Throw in your opener.

 

Saber Throw is an excellent ability and there is no reason not to use it. If your DPS can't wait for you to Leap in you might want to teach THEM about how to be a good DPS. I've got my DPS trained that once I Leap, they can follow and unload as much as they want. If they attack first I'm not taunting off them. Aside from it really not being needed thanks to tank threat generation, 30-50% of their health is a really good wake up call not to do it again.

 

E) I used to perpetually Saber Throw bosses/adds I wasn't on to gain Rage in the Hybrid. It's not necessary now, unless you're spamming Viscous Slash you will be swimming in rage now. Still, if you're low on rage, you've established aggro on the boss you're on, and you have a target within 30m (doesn't even need to be one you can damage), then it doesn't hurt to Saber Throw for Rage. It can actually make a difference on a fight like NiM Tanks though, where there's a tight enrage timer and all DPS increases on either boss are important.

 

There is no reason not to these days. Its one of our harder hitting abilities and generates 3 Focus which means less Strikes. I would put it above Slash on the priority if its available.

 

To the OP's question (though it's now dated), I've been working on the smoothest opener with the most front end threat, and while I'm not 100% satisfied with it (playing with the positioning of Backhand, Smash, and Ravage mostly), it works really well:

 

Saber Throw > Force Jump + Enrage > Crushing Blow + Retaliation > Force Scream > Backhand > Taunt then Ravage > Smash > Sundering Assault > Crushing Blow + Retaliation > Force Scream then AOE Taunt.

 

Try Throw -> Leap (+ Saber Reflect unless you need to save it) -> Sundering Strike -> Guardian Slash + Riposte -> Blade Storm -> Master Strike (+taunt if you want to fluff) -> Sweep -> Hilt Strike -> Stasis.

 

Sets up your rotation for later on and generates a tonne of threat off the bat.

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Saber Reflect really is THAT awesome. It gives you over 8000 threat on everything you're in combat with when you activate it. It's off the GCD and multiplies all reflected damage by your stance modifier. There are literally pulls where I can leap in, hit reflect, type /sit and just watch things die to my DPS without losing aggro. Even without Reflecting anything its still a huge load of threat early on and unless there is some need to hold it for a mechanic there is NO reason not to use it on your opener.

 

 

lol, like that cantina in cademimu. you enter combat -> saber reflect. done.

 

anyway, if you have biochem, i'd suggest getting the reusable with accuracy. when pulling a boss and dps are blowing theirs cds, you really dont want to miss anything. i've seen my backhand and crushing blow miss in a row :rolleyes:

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I played a pure Def Guardian pre-2.0 which was worse for threat than the Hybrid and I still didn't have threat problems. Generally, the biggest problem most people had was not being able to generate and spend Focus efficiently.

 

Same opening threat between the specs, confirmed by taking ~15 logs of each and comparing them on a per second basis and never seeing more than a 5% difference in threat either way. Variations in crits and misses played a significantly larger role in a pre-2.0 Juggs opening threat than the spec did.

 

I am against taunt fluffing. Learn to build aggro without it and you're in a much better position when fluffing isn't available. Trust me.

 

The only advantage of building a massive threat lead pre-2.0 with the Hybrid was it allowed you to Focus on your survivability and just ignore threat generation when you were Focus starved. Post 2.0 there is no need what so ever. If you stop attacking you end up hurting your survivability thanks to Blade Barrier, Blade Barricade and Guardian Slash.

 

To both you and Kitru, I simply don't believe you could hold aggro without taunting unless you either told your DPS to open soft, or your DPS learned they could rip off you too easy. You simply couldn't spike higher than 1500 TPS as a pre-2.0 Jugg in your opener. With a guard, and at a ranged distance, any DPS can pull off 1500 TPS by opening with 2600 DPS, and that was nothing from a Marauder, PT, or Sniper as they could front load 3500 sustained for ~15-20 seconds. On a fight like the NiM tanks you couldn't screw around with soft openers, so you had to wisely use your Taunt and AOE Taunt on the pull, and if you tank swapped on Incinerate Armor like I did, you had to have the Taunt back up for the swap. I also pulled the tank that had 3 DPS nuking it, so I always had an unguarded Mara, Deception Sin, or Sniper to worry about.

 

Taunt fluffing is a good habit to have right now. Carnage is sustaining 4000 for 30 seconds (and remember they can front load Fury/Rage now), as are Lethality Ops. Mercs are pulliing 3500 for 20 seconds, as are Juggs (without an early Ravage proc), and Deception Sins. And of course Snipers are now sustaining well over 3000 for a whole fight. Considering Assassins open with 3500 TPS with good energize procs, or as low as 3000 TPS, and Juggs and PTs are opening with around 2800 TPS (without Saber Reflect), I have to say tank aggro isn't quite as good as we thought it was. I worry that that same thing that occured after 1.4 will happen when the next set of content is released, where DPS numbers went up 10-20%, but tank threat barely moved. But basically, right now, you just don't know who's going to spike hard on the opener and needs a guard.

 

At the end of the day, your job as a tank is to make the fight so easy that the small-brained DPS are able to complete it (and I'm not just talking pugs here). That includes positioning bosses so they have maximum uptime, and keeping aggro while they unload from the start. It's the same as being the offensive line for a running back who runs 200 yards in a game, when your DPS are topping Torparse boss fights then you know you've done your job well. If you're not taunt fluffing on the pull, then you're just giving your DPS less room to work with.

 

Try Throw -> Leap (+ Saber Reflect unless you need to save it) -> Sundering Strike -> Guardian Slash + Riposte -> Blade Storm -> Master Strike (+taunt if you want to fluff) -> Sweep -> Hilt Strike -> Stasis.

 

Sets up your rotation for later on and generates a tonne of threat off the bat.

 

Sundering Assault that early on is a threat loss. If you hit Enrage (don't know Pub equivalent, gives you 6 Focus), then you're maxed on Rage when you land from the leap, and you can go right into hitting the 3rd highest threat move in the game (behind Saber Reflect and Sin grapple). The front end spike on your threat is crucial for holding threat if a DPS gets a lot of crits right away, and it brings your TPS way up from the 2 low threat Rage builders you have to open with. I also hope you mean Taunt then Master Strike/Ravage, since getting pulled off mid-Ravage causes you to lose the benefit of your 2nd highest aggro hit (the last tick).

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To both you and Kitru, I simply don't believe you could hold aggro without taunting unless you either told your DPS to open soft, or your DPS learned they could rip off you too easy.

 

On my Shadow, my threat was absolutely beyond reproach, but that's talking Shadow threat gen and everyone knows it's completely borked.

 

On my Guardian, as long as I wasn't massively overgeared, threat was never a problem. Throw>Leap>Sweep>Sunder>Guardian took care of the opening volley for me and it was never a problem. If the DPS opened *really hard* (burning adrenals and CDs), I would have to burn taunt, but it didn't occur too often.

 

On a fight like the NiM tanks you couldn't screw around with soft openers

 

The only time I ever had a problem was when I was tanking Stormcaller and all of his F/T I/E damage refused to proc the additional resource gain. At that point, I burned taunt at the ~6 second or so mark, but I never had to resort to any kind of taunt fluffing on Firebrand. Not sure what your problem was. On my Guardian, pretty much the only threat mechanic I ever worried about was Guarding the inevitable Assault VG because they spiked hard in their opening.

 

Taunt fluffing is a good habit to have right now.

 

I'm going to have to *really* disagree with you there. My Guard isn't 55 atm, but the guild Guardian tanks I run with manage sustained threat regularly at 2.8-2.9k. My spike threat at the beginning easily breaks 3.2k, especially over the first 15 seconds before you have to start using Strike to normalize Focus. If you're having to taunt fluff, you're doing it wrong.

 

If you're not taunt fluffing on the pull, then you're just giving your DPS less room to work with.

 

I've never been forced to taunt fluff at any point in time on any of my tanks. In fact, I've actively challenged the DPS in raids I'm tanking to *try* and pull threat by spiking hard and early, burning CDs actively, and working together to make sure that they have the best chance they can (I had an Assault VG in 1.7 that burned an adrenal, Battle Focus *and* got the Sentinel to open with Inspiration and he still didn't pull off of my Shadow). I do this because it makes me a better tank by challenging my threat generation and forcing me to improve. It's also a lot more fun for the DPS because it forces them to push their DPS up as well. The only tank I *didn't* do this on pre-2.0 was my Guardian tank and that was because Guardian tank threat generation sucked at the time. Now that Guardian threat is well and truly disgusting (Throw>Leap(Saber Reflect)>Sweep>Sunder>Guardian Slash(Riposte)>Blade Storm>Master Strike has kept threat off of pretty much everything for my Guardian and I'm not even sure that's the *optimal*).

 

Telling me that I'm somehow hurting my DPS or the raid as a whole by not taunt fluffing even though I have all of the native threat generation I have or will ever need doesn't change that fact. A *good* tank doesn't need to taunt fluff. Their spike threat and sustained threat are both more than enough for even the most rabid of DPS. If you *need* to taunt fluff, you should, but it is by no means required and is, honestly, a crutch. If you learn to play your tank effectively, you won't ever need to taunt fluff.

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scream - ravage or ravage and then scream?

 

Scream>Ravage. You want to get that Abs shield up, plus I believe that Scream actually generates more threat than Master Strike does per GCD (don't quote me on that).

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Bringing up pre-2.0 Shadow threat in a discussion about pre-2.0 Jugg threat is just mean :mad:

 

But really, show me logs of a pre-2.0 Jugg/Guardian tank holding over 1500 TPS for the first 15-20 seconds or I will repeatedly call ******** on your claims of holding threat without taunts. Pre-2.0 Juggs HAD to taunt fluff, end of story.

 

This discussion, and one I had with you earlier about how to pull aggro on the Terror as soon as you zone into the second phase, highlights a huge difference in how you and I play. I play under the assumption I might lose, so I'm throwing out all my tools and tricks to make damn sure I come out with the win. You on the other hand, assume you will always win and are content with how you play. Do I need to taunt fluff now? No. Can I? Yes, so I will.

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