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Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.18.2013 , 02:45 AM | #201
Quote: Originally Posted by Jorojus View Post
I guess if the developers decide that healers shouldn't be able to killed 1 on 1 its like that. The way the game is atm I think its like that but not sure, maybe you'll have to ask them?

What I am trying to say is that teams are always balanced if you have everything "perfect".

Ofc in pugs warzone no 2 players are the same, so 99 procent of the whine on this forum is irrelevant.


Look at me all going carebear today
Honestly I'd say most of those changes are likely to be PvE oriented. It's not like spamming your usual compliment of fast/instant healing spells has any chance of keeping up with a boss's damage output so the infinite energy while spamming certain heals is a non issue for PvE because any respectable boss will do enough DPS to force you to use your more costly heals.

To a lesser extent, before 2.0 Sages might be a bit too easy to lock up with interrupts, so they gained interrupt immunity the haste CD, and they also have extra fast Salavation (another spell that's commonly interrupted to the point where you might as well not bother trying to cast it). That said, you're basically punishing DPS for being too good at interrupting spells. What should have happened is standardize all interrupts on 12s CD. There's really no reason why certain specs can interrupt twice as often (6s) and it is devastating to a healer. This would make interrupts still powerful but limited in their usage. Instead Bioware's solution to deal with 6s CD interrupts is to make most heals instant cast, uninterruptible, or cast so fast that it might as well be uninterruptible.

alexsamma's Avatar


alexsamma
05.18.2013 , 03:13 AM | #202
Quote: Originally Posted by BambulaGTS View Post
You so cute bro.

I would say normally in the most mmos one could kill healer 1 on 1 in 2 situations:

1. One is some burtsy devil stunlocking class (classy roguish archetypes).
2. In a very long battle healer go out of resource and dies. But this situation needs damage dealer to be able to make good pressure to not let healer to do damage moves only heals, cause obviously healer will outlast damage dealer, and of course it should be possible to dry healer of resource (passively with making him heal non stop and actively using mana drains etc.).

In swtor, at least in patch 2.0 we got again situation with infinite resource healers. And people suddenly start thinking of OPness.

What changed in heal power departament? Nothing, but now they just always have force - energy. Heat/ammo? May be, may be can be dried, but needs more than 1 on 1 situation.
If you think that Sage/Sorc healers do not have force issues then you've been in games where the sage/sorc has ~zero pressure on him/her.; can't speak to the commando since I do not have one.

Scoundrels/Operatives have no energy issues, healing on one is a joke, but even then burst dps can overcome their healing as long as you are not trying to focus them down while they are being guarded or cross-healed.

Healing is strong, but BURST DPS > BURST HEALING... the ability to heal aoe/pressure damage inflates healing numbers to make it seem like healing is outdistancing dps, ,but that is simply not the case.

Now, a more serious issue is the amount of horrible players who can barely scratch 200-300k damage in a long match, much less utilize interrupts/cc/and focus fire (even in pugs this is fairly simple, just set your focus target and use the acquire focus target keybind..).

JP_Legatus's Avatar


JP_Legatus
05.18.2013 , 03:42 AM | #203
Quote: Originally Posted by Jorojus View Post
Aren't there healers in both "teams" ? Are you one of those guys that can't kill a healer 1 vs 1 ?
Irrelevant post is irrelevant.
The OP states healing is overtuned, whether or not I am dying or killing has no relevance to this thread whatsoever. I posted numbers and you have no facts supporting any argument otherwise, because the numbers support me and the OP. I also mentioned healers can be brought down with good use of cc and focus fire if you had bothered getting some reading comprehension in grade school.

Good troll though.
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Jorojus's Avatar


Jorojus
05.18.2013 , 04:53 AM | #204
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
Irrelevant post is irrelevant.
The OP states healing is overtuned, whether or not I am dying or killing has no relevance to this thread whatsoever. I posted numbers and you have no facts supporting any argument otherwise, because the numbers support me and the OP. I also mentioned healers can be brought down with good use of cc and focus fire if you had bothered getting some reading comprehension in grade school.

Good troll though.
I am pretty sure the facts are that you can't kill a good healer 1 vs 1.
I wonder if you ever played a healer yourself ? Without a tank I mean.

Btw, most of the posts on this forum are irrelevant if nobody that can do anything about the game is reading them ...

And and you didn't know wich school I went too in my days, YOUMAD bro? Getting all personal like that ? I am very good in comprehensive reading, your compliment proves that. Thx.
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TheOgJediCouncil
05.18.2013 , 05:11 AM | #205
i wonder what what happen if there was ever a match with 8 healers vs 8 dpsers. what would happen?
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Tankqull's Avatar


Tankqull
05.18.2013 , 06:10 AM | #206
Quote: Originally Posted by alexsamma View Post
If you think that Sage/Sorc healers do not have force issues then you've been in games where the sage/sorc has ~zero pressure on him/her.; can't speak to the commando since I do not have one.

Scoundrels/Operatives have no energy issues, healing on one is a joke, but even then burst dps can overcome their healing as long as you are not trying to focus them down while they are being guarded or cross-healed.

Healing is strong, but BURST DPS > BURST HEALING... the ability to heal aoe/pressure damage inflates healing numbers to make it seem like healing is outdistancing dps, ,but that is simply not the case.
/this


Quote: Originally Posted by alexsamma View Post
Now, a more serious issue is the amount of horrible players who can barely scratch 200-300k damage in a long match, much less utilize interrupts/cc/and focus fire (even in pugs this is fairly simple, just set your focus target and use the acquire focus target keybind..).
the only WZ that is abit tricky in that behaviour is the alderan/civil war WZ as it resets your focus target when ever riding one of those cycles.

Ajuntalee's Avatar


Ajuntalee
05.18.2013 , 06:15 AM | #207
First off, I play a tank powertech and a hybrid heal operative.

Generally speaking healing is very powerfull in this game pvp wise.

Operative have mana free infinite probes, they can use their mana to refresh team hots and keep people afloat, they have very good mobility especially with their new "transfer ability" roll, they die very fast under stun.

Sorcerers have excellent anti spike mitigation and great passive/active aoe cc, they never die very fast and can bubble up and sink 10 seconds of dps, meanwhile someone else can heal them back to full, actually completely neglecting the burst and focus effort of ennemy's dps classes and the Cds they burnt to achieve the first spike.

Mercenaries have very good flat mitigation and can soak a lot of damage before they even get into trouble, they feel like they are what you can call "hp bag" that you can punch into forever for no real effect.

All in all for diffrent reasons, downing alone a lone healer is never "fast". that would be okay if it did not stack so well with other healers and "tanks" but more importantly with the "expertise " damage mitigation buff or bolster.

It is difficult for a team to coordonate damage on a running aoe cc spamming healer,
It is even more difficult to coordonate "burst" dps on a healer,
Now when you have two healers, you need to coordonate cc and interrupt on one AND damage AND burstdamage timing on that one you want to down.


But that is not all, add a tank in the mix and you have unkillable healers, and you need to rip the tank apart before while burdening the healers with cc and interrupts at the same time. it is very intresting in a premade vs premade environment, but you can't ask that level of gameplay and coordination to pickup teams.

How many pickup players actually understand you don't have to hit the guy in your face and you should focus on the guy healing him in the background. 50% maybee
How many pickup players understand that even when bashing on a healer, you need to bash the same one as your team mates. 30% maybee
How many pickup players understand that even in that case one need to keep on CCing, interrupting the side healer while the rest of the team focus their damage on the one you kill . 20% maybee
How many pickup players actually understand that when healers have a tank you need to forgo all that is above, keep one guy on interrrupt on both healers, and actually pump the big numbers to shred the tank fist because he is the only one that cannot be protected by his own taunts and his own guard. 5% at best

Even in premades when everybody knows the whole engagement drill
You can't ask a team to retake an objective when downing a trio of tank/healer/hybrid heal-dps takes 1 minute and the repop is 30 seconds, BG are too narrow and mobility through the bg is good enough that any suprise attack is totally pointless making stealth dps class coordonated attacks a forgettable gimmick.

But lets be reasonable, even when things look huge they are not that huge, so my two cents on the subject would be to transform the bolster/expertise "~30% damage reduction" buff into a "~30% endurance buff", this would shift the balance towards "bufferred" survivability instead of "sustained survivability".

I would like to say as well that DoTs and AoE damage are not "that" useless, burst damage is nice, burst damage is necessary, but burst damage is a finishing tool, AoE and DoTs are what puts healers in the ropes because they can't keep up with everything, healers are not that good at AoE healing, They are even worse at mass cleansing,and every gcd they have to put into cleaning / putting back someone on the side at full is a gcd they can't put into keeping someone under focus fire alive. Many players only swear by burst and that is where they are wrong.

When you burn your burst CDs you have to wait another 30seconds/minute before you can pull the trick again,should you be snared or otherwise unable to deliver the whole load of your burst sequence or if your timing was wrong, well....you and the rest of your party loses the ability to kill anyone for those next 30 seconds.

Now if in your team you have someone who can put real dps pressure on everyone at the same time by tab dotting, ae dotting and ae damaging, or simply sustained dps, they create a lot of occasions for bursters to sucessfully finish someone with much less positionning and coordination efforts, tanks can't guard everyone, and they get twice the damage if they guard someone in the same AoE as themselves. healers can't clean dots as fast as dotters spread them and they can't heal pending damage 'cause it has not yet been done, healers can't keep everyone afloat simultaneously and they also have to focus heal to neglect the burst you outpace them and people start to fall.

In conclusion, yes healing is very powerfull, but lets be fair the game is not all that unbalanced, good team work is extremely rewarding and that is what makes premade of goodplayers look like gods when you compare them to apack of average pickup players who already struggle playing properly through a flashpoint.

in my opinion the lasting power is more a problem in bg like voidstar where it is virtually impossible to take an objective even for an excellent team because if the opponent is excellent as well you just can't go forward.

Alderande and novare are less of a problem because as true as it is that it is etremely difficult to recap, it is also very difficult to cap at all in the first place. so the bg revolves around wrestling hard on the "middle" and never allowing the ennemy to cap with as least people as possible as you can manage to actually remain able to perform meaningfull side attacks on they preffered turret ( or actually fend-off their flank attacks ) sucessfully chipping away your victory, or punching the other team off balance with those flank attacks splitting the team to break point and cap the middlepoint for an definitive GG.

I think the shift to the way the damage reduction bolster works would solve that healing issue and increase a bit the usability of stacking endurance.

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psycowhisp
05.18.2013 , 06:21 AM | #208
All this healing has shifted the meta game completely and has made it a burst meta at least on pot5
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Jorojus's Avatar


Jorojus
05.18.2013 , 07:25 AM | #209
Quote: Originally Posted by Ajuntalee View Post
First off, I play a tank powertech and a hybrid heal operative.

Generally speaking healing is very powerfull in this game pvp wise.

Operative have mana free infinite probes, they can use their mana to refresh team hots and keep people afloat, they have very good mobility especially with their new "transfer ability" roll, they die very fast under stun.

Sorcerers have excellent anti spike mitigation and great passive/active aoe cc, they never die very fast and can bubble up and sink 10 seconds of dps, meanwhile someone else can heal them back to full, actually completely neglecting the burst and focus effort of ennemy's dps classes and the Cds they burnt to achieve the first spike.

Mercenaries have very good flat mitigation and can soak a lot of damage before they even get into trouble, they feel like they are what you can call "hp bag" that you can punch into forever for no real effect.

All in all for diffrent reasons, downing alone a lone healer is never "fast". that would be okay if it did not stack so well with other healers and "tanks" but more importantly with the "expertise " damage mitigation buff or bolster.

It is difficult for a team to coordonate damage on a running aoe cc spamming healer,
It is even more difficult to coordonate "burst" dps on a healer,
Now when you have two healers, you need to coordonate cc and interrupt on one AND damage AND burstdamage timing on that one you want to down.


But that is not all, add a tank in the mix and you have unkillable healers, and you need to rip the tank apart before while burdening the healers with cc and interrupts at the same time. it is very intresting in a premade vs premade environment, but you can't ask that level of gameplay and coordination to pickup teams.

How many pickup players actually understand you don't have to hit the guy in your face and you should focus on the guy healing him in the background. 50% maybee
How many pickup players understand that even when bashing on a healer, you need to bash the same one as your team mates. 30% maybee
How many pickup players understand that even in that case one need to keep on CCing, interrupting the side healer while the rest of the team focus their damage on the one you kill . 20% maybee
How many pickup players actually understand that when healers have a tank you need to forgo all that is above, keep one guy on interrrupt on both healers, and actually pump the big numbers to shred the tank fist because he is the only one that cannot be protected by his own taunts and his own guard. 5% at best

Even in premades when everybody knows the whole engagement drill
You can't ask a team to retake an objective when downing a trio of tank/healer/hybrid heal-dps takes 1 minute and the repop is 30 seconds, BG are too narrow and mobility through the bg is good enough that any suprise attack is totally pointless making stealth dps class coordonated attacks a forgettable gimmick.

But lets be reasonable, even when things look huge they are not that huge, so my two cents on the subject would be to transform the bolster/expertise "~30% damage reduction" buff into a "~30% endurance buff", this would shift the balance towards "bufferred" survivability instead of "sustained survivability".

I would like to say as well that DoTs and AoE damage are not "that" useless, burst damage is nice, burst damage is necessary, but burst damage is a finishing tool, AoE and DoTs are what puts healers in the ropes because they can't keep up with everything, healers are not that good at AoE healing, They are even worse at mass cleansing,and every gcd they have to put into cleaning / putting back someone on the side at full is a gcd they can't put into keeping someone under focus fire alive. Many players only swear by burst and that is where they are wrong.

When you burn your burst CDs you have to wait another 30seconds/minute before you can pull the trick again,should you be snared or otherwise unable to deliver the whole load of your burst sequence or if your timing was wrong, well....you and the rest of your party loses the ability to kill anyone for those next 30 seconds.

Now if in your team you have someone who can put real dps pressure on everyone at the same time by tab dotting, ae dotting and ae damaging, or simply sustained dps, they create a lot of occasions for bursters to sucessfully finish someone with much less positionning and coordination efforts, tanks can't guard everyone, and they get twice the damage if they guard someone in the same AoE as themselves. healers can't clean dots as fast as dotters spread them and they can't heal pending damage 'cause it has not yet been done, healers can't keep everyone afloat simultaneously and they also have to focus heal to neglect the burst you outpace them and people start to fall.

In conclusion, yes healing is very powerfull, but lets be fair the game is not all that unbalanced, good team work is extremely rewarding and that is what makes premade of goodplayers look like gods when you compare them to apack of average pickup players who already struggle playing properly through a flashpoint.

in my opinion the lasting power is more a problem in bg like voidstar where it is virtually impossible to take an objective even for an excellent team because if the opponent is excellent as well you just can't go forward.

Alderande and novare are less of a problem because as true as it is that it is etremely difficult to recap, it is also very difficult to cap at all in the first place. so the bg revolves around wrestling hard on the "middle" and never allowing the ennemy to cap with as least people as possible as you can manage to actually remain able to perform meaningfull side attacks on they preffered turret ( or actually fend-off their flank attacks ) sucessfully chipping away your victory, or punching the other team off balance with those flank attacks splitting the team to break point and cap the middlepoint for an definitive GG.

I think the shift to the way the damage reduction bolster works would solve that healing issue and increase a bit the usability of stacking endurance.
/like
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Booya - Powertech Moderated swtor forum opening in 2014.
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Genttry's Avatar


Genttry
05.18.2013 , 08:05 AM | #210
Quote: Originally Posted by Ashuranrx View Post
Not true. Heals and damage are balanced. I had games where the opposing team has 3 healers and 1 tank and 4 DPS, and my team has 7 DPS and 1 tank, and we completely obliterated the opposing team because our DPS were superb.

If you lose a game to healers that means the DPS on your team was badly lacking.

Contrary to popular belief, playing a good DPS is just as hard as playing a good tank or a good healer. Carnage Marauder is the best healer killing spec, yet how often do you see Carnage in WZs? And how often you see a good Carnage in WZs?

Part of playing a good DPS is to learn how to focus fire, but most people don't do it. Heals are not OP, just that DPS need to learn to play better.
I agree with this post. In rateds, where there is meaningfull cc and coordination for kill/cc targets like healers, I feel like it is more balanced now than pre-expansion patch.

For non-rateds, good healers can make a big difference if no one targets them or keeps them in check. But seriously, all it takes is one or two efficient dps to ride a healer with cc/burst damage while dps'ing other targets and grabbing objectives. I don't know if Bioware pays more attention to rateds or non-rateds, but this forum seems to comment more on PUG matches when talking about healers being OP.

I believe that one DPS alone should not be able to completely shut down one healer. Like I said, 2 good dps can really make it hard for even a really good healer to be OP. It isn't too hard for good DPS to rack up damage numbers and kills on other targets while keeping one healer busy with cc because burst damage is still good. Good DPS already know this- they can still cc a healer long enough to kill other targets. Or, one good dps can cc/apply enough pressure to one healer where that healer needs to pay more attention to staying alive and less attention to healing others and grabbing objectives. Mess around with the UI and set your focus, target of target, etc.

For multiple healers, it just takes more coordination. But remember that more healers means less dps and burst on that team. It evens out, or it should even out, for a rated team that has experience. I'm still trying to figure out how close to balanced the game is in rated warzones where people actually coordinate.