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The weird people you meet in Group Finder.


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SW_display_name
05.17.2013 , 03:06 PM | #171
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
I'm sorry, I don't have enough of the brain cells to figure out all 8 advanced classes with equal skill, while still having time left over to actually play and enjoy the game without becoming another one of the weird people you meet in flashpoints and never want to see again AND maintain other hobbies, not to mention a job.
I'm sorry, but this is a flat-out terrible excuse. Taking time to read tooltips and think about your abilities/skill tree consumes maybe 1-2 hours total of your entire time leveling a character.

The ancient "I HAVE A JOB / LIFE / HOBBIES" excuse in MMOs (and pretty much any other area where people don't like being criticized) falls completely flat when you realize that the vast, vast majority of people you are playing with are actually:
  • college age or older
  • have a job, or a class schedule equivalent to or more demanding than a job, or both
  • have many other hobbies besides gaming, like most human beings
  • still manage to play adequately, well, or even exceptionally without being spoonfed quick-and-dirty information

Ultimately, once you have the basics sorted out, it's more about repeated practice than any pre-formed plan or guide. Plus, trying to play every single class "with equal skill" is a job for those "gaming savants". The core design assumption is you're playing one thing and taking a long time to figure it out — so you're putting a lot of extra pressure on yourself the game wasn't expecting to support.

Plus, there's nothing wrong with being the "weird one" in stories here. Most of these stories are amused, not angry. Everyone goes through a learning process. However, you can significantly improve the curve on that learning process by looking at your entire toolbox and actually thinking about it logically — you may not get the "optimal rotation" or whatever, but you will perform "fine" with a little thinking and organization.

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SW_display_name
05.17.2013 , 03:29 PM | #172
So having made the above post, I'll ante up and share some of the more questionable things I've done in Group Finder while I was still learning on my earlier characters.

Assassin is for fite
My first character was a Sith Assassin. I leveled as Darkness because it was easy, but respec'd Madness for Group Finder pops because I was afraid of tanking.

Habits from WoW taught me "you have dots! Multi-dot everything!" and I was so overwhelmed with everything else about the leveling process that I didn't stop and think this through completely as it relates to a resource-gated melee class.

So, for most of my leveling FPs, I spent every trash pull running all over like crazy, placing the Discharge lightning dot on every single target ... targets which the other DPS / tank would then kill like 5 seconds later. Finally I had a Boarding Party run where the Sniper said in party chat: "<my name>, you are doing like no damage and I'm carrying you on DPS". I was like

He was apparently some fancy super-SWTOR guy who was leveling his 700th character and running a DPS parser in leveling FPs. He said I was doing good damage on bosses but almost nothing on trash pulls.

After that I thought about what I was doing and started only Discharging the Strongs/Elites and not trying to do an actual rotation on the Weaks / Standards.

~~~

HK-47
Much later I leveled my Powertech and started tanking in the late 20s, because the DPS specs were so incredibly boring and I was looking for something to keep me interested in the character. This went fine until I got to The Foundry and encountered the HK-47 fight.

Up until now, I had been the Super Tank™. I took almost no damage, always held aggro, healers loved me and group runs went fast and smooth. My ego was at an all-time high.

Then I get to HK-47 and I'm completely trashed before I can even react, and the group wipes 5 times in a row before votekicking me. Ouch. Ego = officially crushed.

It turns out I was doing things like...
  • Running out of range for Flame Thrower, then not getting back in melee range to stop Powerful Blast. Meaning I was "mysteriously" losing ~ 50% of my Health nonstop during the "tank HK" phases, OOM'ing our Sorc healer in no time flat.
  • Trying to "tank" HK and taunt him during Snipe phases, leaving the group unprotected from the droids being created and prolonging the length of the Snipe phase
  • Not turning him away from the group during Suppression Fire, causing tons of AoE damage after a Snipe phase (with a Sorc running on vapors from healing Powerful Blasts on me) and killing people

Basically, I was tanking that fight about as wrongly as I possibly could. It was such a shock after having non-stop success until then, with my new tanking role. The group didn't know what was going wrong, they just knew something was wrong and that other tanks didn't do this bad a job, so they booted me.

I crawled off to the forums like a beaten puppy looking for advice and eventually figured out what was going on, then strutted up and was like: "Don't worry folks, I'm a professional" and one-shot HK every time after that. But wow, was that ever a humbling experience!

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
05.17.2013 , 04:59 PM | #173
@ Zeroplus - well naturally, some sort of personal judgement is involved. guides are guidlines though, they are like tutorials. its like drawing. can you become very good while self taught? of course. doesn't mean you should take lessons, or read books, practice exercises someone else created? of course not.

personally it didn't even occur to me to use aggro dropping ability while tanking (unless its a situation where tanks taunt off each other and for some reason the boss still goes for me, instead of the other tank)

@ Kawabanga - I only play 3 of those ac's with any true regularity and even then I'm only experienced with one of the trees, not all 3. so its actually faster for me to glance over a quick basic guide, then figure out each and every tooltip and how they correlate on my own. I can figure out healing trees without much help - (though I always accept good ideas and tricks when offered), but I've been playing healers as mains for years now.dps/tanks don't come with the same innate knack for me.

but I come from the time of game where you HAD to read book sized tutorial that came in a game box, you couldn't just jump in (and weren't expected to) and figure it all out on your own.

anyways, the point I'm trying to make I guess is that I don't understand why people would want to discourage someone to go outside for knowledge and help. whether you yourself need that same help or not is inconsequential - would you rather that that person that's not you sucked and became another odd pug story for someone because they are too uncomfortable to ask questions anymore?
like operatives who keep using cover and long range abilities... because that's what the trainer has been teaching them when they first started playing a character, those abilities popped out automatically on their toolbars, so if trainer kept offering them upgrades for those skills... that should mean they are still useful yes? and mouseover tooltip shows that they are supposed to deal a fair bit of damage too. see where I'm going with it?
what's obvious to you, is not necessarily obvious to someone else.
like that bounty hunter who kept using all abilities as they lit up... because she didn't know any better and because at that time no one bothered to ask her why.

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
05.17.2013 , 05:16 PM | #174
Quote: Originally Posted by SW_display_name View Post
I'm sorry, but this is a flat-out terrible excuse. Taking time to read tooltips and think about your abilities/skill tree consumes maybe 1-2 hours total of your entire time leveling a character.

The ancient "I HAVE A JOB / LIFE / HOBBIES" excuse in MMOs (and pretty much any other area where people don't like being criticized) falls completely flat when you realize that the vast, vast majority of people you are playing with are actually:
  • college age or older
  • have a job, or a class schedule equivalent to or more demanding than a job, or both
  • have many other hobbies besides gaming, like most human beings
  • still manage to play adequately, well, or even exceptionally without being spoonfed quick-and-dirty information

Ultimately, once you have the basics sorted out, it's more about repeated practice than any pre-formed plan or guide. Plus, trying to play every single class "with equal skill" is a job for those "gaming savants". The core design assumption is you're playing one thing and taking a long time to figure it out — so you're putting a lot of extra pressure on yourself the game wasn't expecting to support.

Plus, there's nothing wrong with being the "weird one" in stories here. Most of these stories are amused, not angry. Everyone goes through a learning process. However, you can significantly improve the curve on that learning process by looking at your entire toolbox and actually thinking about it logically — you may not get the "optimal rotation" or whatever, but you will perform "fine" with a little thinking and organization.
I think you are reading it as someone saying they don't have time to learn or don't want to.

what I'm saying I don't have time to learn it the hard way not to mention I actually respect the time of other people who end up victims of my learning the hard way. what is wrong with following the advice of others who already figured it out exactly?

I just don't understand that mentality, I really don't.

because you CAN significantly improve your learning curve by looking at a guide that explains those tooltips and how they work together. there's absolutely NO need to figure it out the "hard" way, when other options exist out there, when those other options were specifically created by people who wrote them for that reason - to share with those who come after them and make THEIR lives easier, not to mention those of the people that group with them.

I don't expect people to go outside and learn, but I appreciate those that do, and I've never EVER done the "figure it out yourself" thing when people do ask questions, whether it comes to videogames, or my other hobbies. it slows down progress when people hoard knowledge it in real life instead of sharing it.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
05.17.2013 , 07:29 PM | #175
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
I think you are reading it as someone saying they don't have time to learn or don't want to.

what I'm saying I don't have time to learn it the hard way not to mention I actually respect the time of other people who end up victims of my learning the hard way. what is wrong with following the advice of others who already figured it out exactly?

I just don't understand that mentality, I really don't.

because you CAN significantly improve your learning curve by looking at a guide that explains those tooltips and how they work together. there's absolutely NO need to figure it out the "hard" way, when other options exist out there, when those other options were specifically created by people who wrote them for that reason - to share with those who come after them and make THEIR lives easier, not to mention those of the people that group with them.

I don't expect people to go outside and learn, but I appreciate those that do, and I've never EVER done the "figure it out yourself" thing when people do ask questions, whether it comes to videogames, or my other hobbies. it slows down progress when people hoard knowledge it in real life instead of sharing it.
I believe that this aspect of the discussion starting with using Noxxic as a source of data.

There are plenty of really great guides available. Noxxic isn't one of them. Sometimes their advice is simply poor, sometimes it is actually destructive.

Due to the this, the response one gets when citing them as a source tends to be pretty strong.

Nothing wrong with using a guide. Just use a good one.

Darkkien's Avatar


Darkkien
05.17.2013 , 08:00 PM | #176
Honestly i don't see the reason for the hate on noxxic , i use it when i first start a character and i usually do pretty well with the advice they give. And then even the other guides ive seen they usually are very similar to noxxic.

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
05.17.2013 , 10:02 PM | #177
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I believe that this aspect of the discussion starting with using Noxxic as a source of data.

There are plenty of really great guides available. Noxxic isn't one of them. Sometimes their advice is simply poor, sometimes it is actually destructive.

Due to the this, the response one gets when citing them as a source tends to be pretty strong.

Nothing wrong with using a guide. Just use a good one.
which is WHy I asked for other guides suggestions.

and the replies i got "just read the tooltips and figure it out yourself, the long way"

THAT is the attitude that i don't get. if you know better sources? why is it so difficult to share them with someone who asks? especially with someone who might not yet have experience to figure out exactly which parts of noxxic are so wrong (other than obvious don't use aggro drop as a tank - which to be fair is not as obvious to someone who is even less experienced)

and the thing is, there isn't even an excuse of business competition (which is what I ran into when starting to learn design... I thought I was insecure, but apparently some people are so afraid, have so little faith in their creativity that even sharing which supplier they get raw materials from is too much of a threat to their livelihood) this is a case where we ALL benefit from people knowing how to play better. there's no inherent virtue in making others go through the same hardships you may have had to go through as an early adopter.

I use noxxic because its an all in one guide that is just basic overview - cliff notes if you will, that gives me a jump start for figuring out what works for me. especially when I'm trying out a new spec or a new role that I didn't level with, and so didn't have a chance to familiarize myself with gradually. but if the information on noxxic is flawed? why not share better alternatives?

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Khevar
05.17.2013 , 11:49 PM | #178
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
which is WHy I asked for other guides suggestions.

and the replies i got "just read the tooltips and figure it out yourself, the long way"

THAT is the attitude that i don't get. if you know better sources? why is it so difficult to share them with someone who asks? especially with someone who might not yet have experience to figure out exactly which parts of noxxic are so wrong (other than obvious don't use aggro drop as a tank - which to be fair is not as obvious to someone who is even less experienced)

...
I understand.

Honestly, the class section of this forum contains some really really good guides. For each of the toons I leveled, the stickied threads at the top contained great data that helped me out.

For some more in-depth analysis of classes, the site mmo-mechanics is excellent. The people that post there love math and MMOs, and really spend a lot of time crunching numbers and figuring things out.

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SW_display_name
05.17.2013 , 11:57 PM | #179
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
what I'm saying I don't have time to learn it the hard way not to mention I actually respect the time of other people who end up victims of my learning the hard way. what is wrong with following the advice of others who already figured it out exactly?
But yes, you do, because people with equally demanding schedules manage to — they're just more patient about it. In fact, these are the same people who write your guides — most are in college, have jobs, or both. My only issue was with saying "I can't learn it myself because I have a job, hobbies, and a life so stop bothering me!" — that is just flat-out wrong. You don't want to spend time doing it, and that is completely fine. But that's entirely a personal preference.

I definitely am not complaining that you look at guides. I hunt for guides. Everyone hunts for guides, I think. Even the people writing guides hunt for guides or ask for advice or do a lot of experimenting. The people making the game probably reference guides sometimes.

But I think, as someone else mentioned, the crux point was that following certain lazy / hasty guides can cause harm. It's still better than both following no guide and not taking any time to think about things yourself, but following a good guide or employing critical thinking would both probably be more effective in the long-term. There's a danger to getting too used to just doing what you're told, at face value.

~~~

Also, SWTOR can have a dearth of guides on certain classes / specs / aspects at times because it's not as popular a game as other MMOs. In these cases, again, it helps to be able to look at your tooltips, lay out your toolbox, compare what your skill tree is doing and tinker out the rough outline of what your class+spec is probably intended to do.

SWTOR is, for the most part, very straight-forward. It doesn't have a lot of the HA HA HA!!! "traps" that WoW loves to spring on people, for example. So it's usually quite doable to sort out your rotation and what skills are "use me all the time" vs. "use me only in certain situations", on your own. From there, you can use the forum community here to ask questions about anything you're uncertain about — people in the Class forums are usually very, very helpful / constructive.

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SW_display_name
05.18.2013 , 12:17 AM | #180
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
like operatives who keep using cover and long range abilities... because that's what the trainer has been teaching them when they first started playing a character, those abilities popped out automatically on their toolbars, so if trainer kept offering them upgrades for those skills... that should mean they are still useful yes? and mouseover tooltip shows that they are supposed to deal a fair bit of damage too. see where I'm going with it?
But they are useful. Snipe is a perfectly appropriate substitute for Overload Shot if you can pull it off without cast pushback and do it without capping Energy, and Explosive Probe is also useful for uncapping Energy when moving to target / forced out of melee range. Additionally, Cover is an incredible defensive tool when healing as Op or squeezing out a last-second escape as Conceal/Lethality.

On the other hand, an Operative who stays at 30m is going to perform pretty questionably. But your skill trees are completely filled with buffs to your close range abilities, and shiny new 4m / 10m abilities. This is a pretty gigantic clue that you should be getting in there — and that's what I'm saying. Some critical thinking and "hmmm." would discourage most Ops from staying at 30m in Cover at all times, and this is supported by rarely ever seeing an Op do that in an FP.

That's why the odd one that does stands out as "weird".

Quote:
what's obvious to you, is not necessarily obvious to someone else.
like that bounty hunter who kept using all abilities as they lit up... because she didn't know any better and because at that time no one bothered to ask her why.
Sure, but if she had stopped to think at all about what she was doing, she would stop doing that. There's only so far the game designers can compensate for people; if you're unwilling to even read your tooltips, then I think it's reasonable to pay for that with some gameplay deficiency.

Again, this is supported by only seeing 1 Powertech do that over leveling 6 ACs to 50 so far. My sample size is quite biased and small, but it still suggests that the vast majority of players can sit down and reason out that their class full of melee / 10m abilities should stand at melee / 10m and use them, and that since they're not tanking, they should not use 2 abilities that "force the target to attack you for 6 seconds".

And that's enough for most group content in SWTOR. To go beyond that, you want to use your abilities in the optimal priority. Only HM Op+ content demands that sort of stuff, though, and no one would blame you for not magically knowing it since even tooltips and napkin math can't always tell you the correct story there.