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Bloodthirst needs a Global Cooldown


Grimsblood's Avatar


Grimsblood
05.16.2013 , 08:55 PM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by Ifrit View Post
You are partially correct . The root of the real problem is very poor operation design. EC was designed much better in comparison to SnV and TFB. EC did a better job of rewarding a mixed group composition of ranged and melee, single target and aoe dmg. HM SnV and TFB are currently designed so that melee is just as good as ranged dps and there is little need for aoe dps. There is no reason for HM SnV and TFB to take any other class than the pure raw best dps class (assuming same gear/skill of course). Mara is at least very competitive for being at the near the top of the dps charts. In addition, it can boost the entire group's dps with no downside. In addition, a group can stack 4 mara's with no real downside and a significant dps boost. There is no reason in the current HM SnV and TFB to take anything else. The devs could redesign the fights completely to fix the issue, or they could add global cooldown to maras. It is highly unlikely they would actually redesign the operations. The alternative is pretty simple, put bloodthirst on a global cooldown. The cooldown could even be set to allow for 1-2 maras to still be 100% effective and only discourage stacking 3-4 maras.
Whoa! Because you feel the operations are poorly designed, your solution is to make changes to the AC's!? Yeah, ok. Next Maras will be complaining because their utility in the other fights (where it was fine) has been nerfed. Big picture dude, think big picture.
DPS is science. Healing is art. Tanking is strategy.
Hippolytà - Level 50 Sentinel - Grimsblood - Level 55 Sage
Saphyria - Level 55 Sniper - Fenrîr - Level 55 Gunslinger

DarthSpekulatius's Avatar


DarthSpekulatius
05.17.2013 , 12:48 AM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by Grimsblood View Post
Whoa! Because you feel the operations are poorly designed, your solution is to make changes to the AC's!? Yeah, ok. Next Maras will be complaining because their utility in the other fights (where it was fine) has been nerfed. Big picture dude, think big picture.
if it's in the form of a Debuff for all who have been affected by BT in form of a 2min 30sec" debuff then there would be no nerf, unless you take more then 2 Mara's per group.
(well in the end phase you'd have only one BT so I can see a small "nerf",
but if your are raiding 8 people raids the tanks and healers would like a BT too I'm sure.)

but I can understand why any class with an Armour Debuff would think Maras have an unfair advantage since just one other class with an Armour Debuff in the whole Raid would makes Their Group Buff useless.

in the end I don't see a reason to change it because stacking Maros doesn't happen anyway, in my experience at least.
don't "fix" things that aren't broken.

Ifrit's Avatar


Ifrit
05.17.2013 , 07:33 AM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by Grimsblood View Post
Whoa! Because you feel the operations are poorly designed, your solution is to make changes to the AC's!? Yeah, ok. Next Maras will be complaining because their utility in the other fights (where it was fine) has been nerfed. Big picture dude, think big picture.
Give one example where this global cooldown would this would nerf maras' "utility in the other fights".

Thundergulch's Avatar


Thundergulch
05.17.2013 , 07:35 AM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by Ifrit View Post
Give one example where this global cooldown would this would nerf maras' "utility in the other fights".
Are you still crying about this?
FFS, why does it matter what classes a group brings to a fight?

Ifrit's Avatar


Ifrit
05.17.2013 , 07:40 AM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by Thundergulch View Post
Are you still crying about this?
FFS, why does it matter what classes a group brings to a fight?
A thing called balance.

Thundergulch's Avatar


Thundergulch
05.17.2013 , 07:46 AM | #126
So you're implying that 4 Marauders popping BT back to back is needed to complete the end game HM ops?
What about the groups that have completed this content without having a marauder in the group at all?

Ifrit's Avatar


Ifrit
05.17.2013 , 07:52 AM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by Thundergulch View Post
So you're implying that 4 Marauders popping BT back to back is needed to complete the end game HM ops?
What about the groups that have completed this content without having a marauder in the group at all?
I never said you need 4 maras. I just argued that is gives an unfair dps advantage with no downside in current content.

Ps. It would be more efficient to stagger the BT's. ~1/min.

Thundergulch's Avatar


Thundergulch
05.17.2013 , 07:54 AM | #128
OH NO!
There might be ONE group out there that has 4 marauders, and they can clear an ops 30 seconds faster than those that don't have 4 marauders.

that's unfair! TO THE FORUMS!

Korse's Avatar


Korse
05.17.2013 , 10:18 AM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by Thundergulch View Post
OH NO!
There might be ONE group out there that has 4 marauders, and they can clear an ops 30 seconds faster than those that don't have 4 marauders.

that's unfair! TO THE FORUMS!
You're missing the point. Allowing known imbalances to exist within the game can potentially be a drawback later on. As has been mentioned, if there does exist an encounter in which the only constraint in the fight is raid damage, you bring 4 snipers and pop their shields. You bring classes that can offheal if a fight requires more healing than 2 healers can do. You bring bloodthirst if you need to work around a dps threshold.

So many people seem to be focusing on the idea that the OP wants Marauders nerfed horribly. This doesn't sound like an issue that many people are running into, but this sets a bad precedent. To me, this is less about nerfing one class and inspiring and cultivating class diversity. There is no reason to bring diverse classes to a raid. None of the content is hard. You can beat all of the content in the game with any group composition without trouble. However, you're rewarded for bringing certain classes over other classes. And not in unique situations. All the time.

What if Bloodthirst was made to impact the entire raid instead of their party and instituted a 150s group lockout? What if when they made this change they instituted other changes? Agents were desired at the beginning of the game for their crit buff (also yay for unique class buffs everyone has). What if Operatives had a raid wide buff that increased Critical Hit (and or Surge) by 15% for 15 seconds? Maybe dps assassins get something similar to the tank mark, but that increases damage by some %. Or increases defense. Or increases resource regeneration. Maybe just flat alacrity? What if Powertechs had a raid wide utility that say...put Energy Shield on everyone that increased defense by 20% for 15s? I don't know, let the developers try to think of unique raid utility buffs for the other classes.

You all seem to be arguing against making any changes to any classes because you think people use these raid utilities as a crux, but if they ever made hard content then yes, these raid utilities would vastly decrease the desirability of other classes. When all the classes have useful raid utility, that's called balance.

As I've said the entire time: I don't want to nerf Marauders. I want to bring melee dps classes into a balanced ratio of damage and utility. Why can't we add some unique raid utility for other classes?
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Grimsblood's Avatar


Grimsblood
05.17.2013 , 11:05 AM | #130
Quote: Originally Posted by Ifrit View Post
Give one example where this global cooldown would this would nerf maras' "utility in the other fights".
I don't have to prove that. The only reason a raid wide CD is being proposed is because there is a fight with a tight enrage timer and someone got the bright idea that a 4 Marauder team would be able to do it easier then any other comp. What my previous comment was designed to point out is the very fact that this has not been brought up before. I am sure almost none of you EVER did NiM Firebrand and Stormcaller in 16 man before it was nerfed...........from experience, THAT was a tight enrage timer. Tell me why none of us that where progressing in that fight got the bright idea to come to these forums and complain about the fight being easier with 6 Marauders?..........I will also point out, that every who has done that fight respects it for what it is and asked for more fights of that caliber.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ifrit View Post
I never said you need 4 maras. I just argued that is gives an unfair dps advantage with no downside in current content.

Ps. It would be more efficient to stagger the BT's. ~1/min.
Let's talk about unfair dps advantages...........more specifically ranged dps, As ranged you have 10x the uptime on boss. If you are a Sniper, your raid single target and AoE is far superior to any other class. Not to mention the ease of target swapping........I guess we should give melee classes the ability to attack from 30 meters away?...oh wait, I am sorry.....35meters away (since that is the sniper range).

The only way you can achieve that "true balance" you guys keep whining about is to have EVERY class the EXACT same class.......go play CoD or something if you want that.

Quote: Originally Posted by Korse View Post
Snip
To be quite honest, waaaay back around 1.2 my guild and I were discussing some sort of Synergy between classes in regards to group buffs. I would actually be a proponent of that. Something along the lines of the class using X ability (Normal Spec dependent ability, Turbulence, Plasma Probe, Merciless Slash, Force Exhaustion, etc) to apply a buff to another type of ability. It would bring a nice synergy between classes in operations.....however, is probably a bit to much to add to the game at this point.
DPS is science. Healing is art. Tanking is strategy.
Hippolytà - Level 50 Sentinel - Grimsblood - Level 55 Sage
Saphyria - Level 55 Sniper - Fenrîr - Level 55 Gunslinger