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Bloodthirst needs a Global Cooldown


Cerio's Avatar


Cerio
05.15.2013 , 01:48 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Korse View Post
This thread is akin to something I've been posting about for months. Marauder is easily the dominant melee class. I cannot think of a single fight where you cannot take 4 marauders who have an ungodly amount of cooldowns, most noticeably being able to roll Bloodthirst with 20% uptime.

What advantage can you think of to bringing any of the other melee dps classes?

Powertechs have... Pull, Taunt, and Stealth Scan -- lose
Operatives have Vanish, Cleanse (Tech/Physical), Infiltrate, Exfiltrate -- lose
Assassins can Vanish, Taunt, Phasewalk, Overcharge Saber, Force Speed -- lose
Juggernauts have Taunt, Push, Intercede -- lose
Where's Sniper on your list? Of course Marauder and Snipers would be waaaay better DPS-wise... It's the ONLY thing they can do. They can't tank and they can't heal. All of your examples have 2 specs. BW made Mara/Sent and Sniper/Slinger better DPS-wise BECAUSE they cannot do any other role EXCEPT for DPS. Sorry, but this will not change. QQ elsewhere.
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Starcrusher - 55 Jugg Starrazer - 55 Sent Mal'inda - 55 Marauder
Ammut - 55 Sorc Alcyone - 55 Sage Xa'phan - 48 Assassin
Minkah - 55 Merc Sacmis - 55 Sniper Starcat - 55 Gunslinger

DarthSpooky's Avatar


DarthSpooky
05.15.2013 , 01:52 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
Okay, Marauder 1 I want you to CC Flame, Marauder 2 CC Gun, Marauder 3 CC Shield, Marauder 4 CC Lightning...

Oh wait...
Maybe they are all droids?
<South of Heaven>
Ebon Hawk

shyroman's Avatar


shyroman
05.15.2013 , 01:52 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Ifrit View Post
As it is currently, there is absolutely no reason to use any composition of classes besides 4 marauders for HM operations. Not only is their dps excellent, but with 4 mara's the group can roll "constant" bloodlust to maintain max group dps. The best solution is to put bloodlust on a global cool down for the group analogous to battle rez.
15% increase for 20% of the time = 3% total damage increase, now tell me, how is 3% so good that there is no reason to take anything else?
Ryann-Sniper; Apophas-Marauder; Jesseca-Operative
Chrisia-Shadow; Ryannack-Sorcerer; Ryanner-Powertech
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Cerio's Avatar


Cerio
05.15.2013 , 01:54 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Korse View Post
But these things are all part of class balance. It's easy to say that utility should only be balanced with utility if you're a marauder -- you have ALL of the utility. It's an unfair advantage to classes that only do the same damage as you and have no utility. Yes, I understand that from a pvp perspective stealth and vanish trump just about everything for utility, but that doesn't mean anything in PVE. I also cannot stress that enough. Stealth classes could lose stealth in PVE and it means...an extra trash pull? I would gladly give up stealth in PVE on my stealth classes if they got marauder utilities.
Op/Scoundrel stealth CC = utility... You're gonna give up a utility that's useful in an ENTIRELY different situation for a utility another class has for an ENTIRELY different situation in PVE? That's just dumb. Every class has their role to perform PVE-wise. This is only a discussion in PVP and even then it's moot. A DPS Assassin/Shadow or DPS Jugg/Guardian can AoE taunt as well in PVP racking up the Protection points which is WAAAAY better than closing a mere 5% dps gap in PVP. So this argument is dumb in both environments.
Server: Jedi Covenant
Starcrusher - 55 Jugg Starrazer - 55 Sent Mal'inda - 55 Marauder
Ammut - 55 Sorc Alcyone - 55 Sage Xa'phan - 48 Assassin
Minkah - 55 Merc Sacmis - 55 Sniper Starcat - 55 Gunslinger

ML_DoubleTap's Avatar


ML_DoubleTap
05.15.2013 , 02:06 PM | #45
I could be wrong...but, I was pretty sure that Inspiration/Bloodthirst only applied to the four in your group. So, if you're in an 8man Op it only applies to the 4 on your half of the raid, or a 16man it only applies to the 4 in your quarter. You can't get a 'rolling' increase to both dps and healing even for the potntial minute of uptime.
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Korse's Avatar


Korse
05.15.2013 , 02:16 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Cerio View Post
Op/Scoundrel stealth CC = utility... You're gonna give up a utility that's useful in an ENTIRELY different situation for a utility another class has for an ENTIRELY different situation in PVE? That's just dumb. Every class has their role to perform PVE-wise. This is only a discussion in PVP and even then it's moot. A DPS Assassin/Shadow or DPS Jugg/Guardian can AoE taunt as well in PVP racking up the Protection points which is WAAAAY better than closing a mere 5% dps gap in PVP. So this argument is dumb in both environments.
If a class's pvp utility is vastly superior than its pve utility, that's imbalanced.
If one class's utility is vastly superior to another's utility, that's imbalanced.

BioWare doesn't seem to care about balancing utility. Instead, whining about imbalanced dps has slowly gotten the dps closer. I don't care about the damage of classes because I trust every member of my raid team. What I do care about is providing proper utility balance across classes. Personally, I'd rather an environment where every class did similar dps with caveats (burst vs sustained, area vs single target), but the general population would just complain because pvp warzone numbers would be so much higher for the area classes opposed to bursty single target. I'd also love for each class to have a raid wide utility ability similar to how marauders have Bloodthirst and Predation and Snipers have their Shield. It feels like everyone is so against proper damage and utility balancing because they don't want to get nerfed.

SW_display_name's Avatar


SW_display_name
05.15.2013 , 02:21 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by shyroman View Post
15% increase for 20% of the time = 3% total damage increase, now tell me, how is 3% so good that there is no reason to take anything else?
You cannot seriously argue that a controlled, timed 15% damage increase can simply be averaged-out to a general increase when considering its relative value.

shyroman's Avatar


shyroman
05.15.2013 , 02:38 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by SW_display_name View Post
You cannot seriously argue that a controlled, timed 15% damage increase can simply be averaged-out to a general increase when considering its relative value.
Nope, but the op's argument is that it is continuous and therefore not timed and i'm just adding to how ridiculous his argument is. Yes, an organized could add more than 3% if all of the marauders could continue a normal rotation, but they can't, as many people have already pointed out, because marauders can't build fury if affected by bloodthirst. They could use frenzy, but they couldn't do that all the time because frenzy has a 3 min cooldown (2.5 min if specced)
Ryann-Sniper; Apophas-Marauder; Jesseca-Operative
Chrisia-Shadow; Ryannack-Sorcerer; Ryanner-Powertech
Jedi Covenant

SW_display_name's Avatar


SW_display_name
05.15.2013 , 03:09 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by shyroman View Post
Nope, but the op's argument is that it is continuous and therefore not timed and i'm just adding to how ridiculous his argument is. Yes, an organized could add more than 3% if all of the marauders could continue a normal rotation, but they can't, as many people have already pointed out, because marauders can't build fury if affected by bloodthirst. They could use frenzy, but they couldn't do that all the time because frenzy has a 3 min cooldown (2.5 min if specced)
I guess it depends on the fight. If there's a section that would genuinely benefit from 30-60s of sustained increased output, instead of a narrow window of 15-20s increased output, then yes this tactic could be meaningful.

As for the rotation, that's comme-ci/comme-ca. You'd have to work out how much the Fury-blockage reduces damage output and weigh that against how much BT increases it, then further split the analysis by spec choice, to see what you're really getting.

As far as Frenzy: with BT on 5m CD and Frenzy on 2.5m CD, it should be plausible to have a Frenzy-chain ready for each BT, right?

But I'm still curious about the people who keep saying "BT only affects your actual group", which drops the plausible Op-wide uptime to 30s in an 8-man. Unless, I guess, you structured it as "Tank / Tank / Heal / Heal" in one group and "DPS / DPS / DPS / DPS" in the other group... I guess that's plausible enough.

I know I'm meandering a bit, I'm not very experienced with organized Ops, but I just find this topic interesting and want to explore it more.

manco-capac's Avatar


manco-capac
05.15.2013 , 03:43 PM | #50
OP is right. Full marauders/sentinals dps raids are running rampage and that's the only setup you see every day. Nothing else since makes things so easy and awesome.