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Bloodthirst needs a Global Cooldown


Grimsblood's Avatar


Grimsblood
05.15.2013 , 09:54 AM | #21
You are forgetting the initial Bloodthirst. Soon as it is out (I would imagine immediately because people are idiots and don't know how to time abilities) then the other 3 have no Fury/Centering built. They would then have to pop Valorous Call to gain their stacks. When that is done, then the next Mara would be building to 30 then pop his Bloodthirst, since some others would be behind they would get clipped.....so on and so forth. Let us not forget that the odds are in favor of mechanics interrupting the Bloodthirsts and bringing down the damage.

There are 2 times within a fight that Bloodthirst should be used. The first time is (Properly) on in the beginning and the second is in the end during the burn phase. The only change to that is if the fight will be less then 5 minutes; in which case you use it below 30%. In any other place you are loosing potential damage.
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sithaztec's Avatar


sithaztec
05.15.2013 , 10:08 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Korse View Post
If trash is hard for you, you probably need as many bloodthirsts as possible. This thread is more about class balance and less about crutches.
Pro tip. Thanks bro. More bloodthirst will be required for all trash pulls.

Korse's Avatar


Korse
05.15.2013 , 10:27 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Grimsblood View Post
TL;DR OP........you are ignorant to think that Bloodthirst is the only reason to bring and damage class to a raid. You should look into other classes and ACTUALLY understand how they function and what damage they do. Raids are all about balance and individual performance.
The OP did not specify in his post, however several posters that know Ifrit have been using the word "melee" in their responses. Marauders and snipers are definitely the top two targets of my conversations about overpowered classes, however I know that Ifrit's raising the same question I have many times: Why would you bring any melee class to a fight other than marauders? In other words, if you had one player with all melee classes that were equally geared, why would you want him to bring his operative, assassin, powertech, or juggernaut?

Also, nothing in this game really requires any actual class composition, so bringing the classes that are not in damage and utility balance (overpowered) instead of the other classes makes the content even more trivial. I think Ifrit's underlying argument is that the classes are not balanced so that every class has damage equivalent to their personal raid utility.

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
05.15.2013 , 10:33 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Korse View Post
The OP did not specify in his post, however several posters that know Ifrit have been using the word "melee" in their responses. Marauders and snipers are definitely the top two targets of my conversations about overpowered classes, however I know that Ifrit's raising the same question I have many times: Why would you bring any melee class to a fight other than marauders? In other words, if you had one player with all melee classes that were equally geared, why would you want him to bring his operative, assassin, powertech, or juggernaut?

Also, nothing in this game really requires any actual class composition, so bringing the classes that are not in damage and utility balance (overpowered) instead of the other classes makes the content even more trivial. I think Ifrit's underlying argument is that the classes are not balanced so that every class has damage equivalent to their personal raid utility.
No, utility and dps should be two completely independent things.

You balance dps classes around their dps based on boss mechanics. That's it.

You balance utility around utility.

I would personally give up Beserk, Predation, and BT if it meant I can have perma-stealth, or wear heavy armor all the time... AND could respec to a tank role... all while doing the same DPS numbers I'm doing now.

DarthSpekulatius's Avatar


DarthSpekulatius
05.15.2013 , 10:46 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
No, utility and dps should be two completely independent things.

You balance dps classes around their dps based on boss mechanics. That's it.

You balance utility around utility.

I would personally give up Beserk, Predation, and BT if it meant I can have perma-stealth, or wear heavy armor all the time... AND could respec to a tank role... all while doing the same DPS numbers I'm doing now.
but you wouldn't give up dps for these things?

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
05.15.2013 , 10:52 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpekulatius View Post
but you wouldn't give up dps for these things?
And you completely missed what I said.

All melee dps should be roughly around each other... meaning PT's, Ops, Juggs, and Sin's should all do within 5% of the dps of each other.

Marauder dps should not be lowered because they bring more utility. As I said, Utlity and DPS are two independent things.

Korse's Avatar


Korse
05.15.2013 , 10:59 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
And you completely missed what I said.

All melee dps should be roughly around each other... meaning PT's, Ops, Juggs, and Sin's should all do within 5% of the dps of each other.

Marauder dps should not be lowered because they bring more utility. As I said, Utlity and DPS are two independent things.
But these things are all part of class balance. It's easy to say that utility should only be balanced with utility if you're a marauder -- you have ALL of the utility. It's an unfair advantage to classes that only do the same damage as you and have no utility. Yes, I understand that from a pvp perspective stealth and vanish trump just about everything for utility, but that doesn't mean anything in PVE. I also cannot stress that enough. Stealth classes could lose stealth in PVE and it means...an extra trash pull? I would gladly give up stealth in PVE on my stealth classes if they got marauder utilities.

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
05.15.2013 , 11:09 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Korse View Post
But these things are all part of class balance. It's easy to say that utility should only be balanced with utility if you're a marauder -- you have ALL of the utility. It's an unfair advantage to classes that only do the same damage as you and have no utility. Yes, I understand that from a pvp perspective stealth and vanish trump just about everything for utility, but that doesn't mean anything in PVE. I also cannot stress that enough. Stealth classes could lose stealth in PVE and it means...an extra trash pull? I would gladly give up stealth in PVE on my stealth classes if they got marauder utilities.
No... utility is utility. That's the bottom line. I cannot stress it enough that you do not balance dps around utility. Point blank. Even if a class brings a ton of utlity you would simply take the higher dps numbers over someone with more utility.

If you want to complain about utitlity then I'll call in the Hybrid Tax and say that Hybrid classes like sins, juggs, opps, and pts have to have reduced dps because their Hybrid classes.

The Hybrid Tax and the Utility Tax are equally valid. They're either both not valid or they both are. I have yet to be in a raid in ToR where they would sit someone based on utility over dps numbers.

And you're also wrong. There have been uses for a dps to be able to CC, to taunt, to respec to a different role. Granted, it's not as many as Bloodthirst. But Bloodthirst isn't necessary to a raid in this game. It's 15% more damage for 15 seconds.

Memo-'s Avatar


Memo-
05.15.2013 , 11:42 AM | #29
Also, people tend to forget that Bloodthirst only affects four people (for now), that is, your own raid frame.

Due to this, the maximum number of Marauders there should be in a raid that seeks to get the most out of their dps, is two. One for each raid frame. This way you don't get the annoying Fury-stack problem.
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Thundergulch's Avatar


Thundergulch
05.15.2013 , 12:12 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Ifrit View Post
As it is currently, there is absolutely no reason to use any composition of classes besides 4 marauders for HM operations. Not only is their dps excellent, but with 4 mara's the group can roll "constant" bloodlust to maintain max group dps. The best solution is to put bloodlust on a global cool down for the group analogous to battle rez.
One of the dumbest posts I've seen on these forums in a while.... and believe me there are a LOT.
I'm curious.... how long do you think Bloodthirst lasts when it's activated?