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Ridiculous healing for level 55 flashpoints


tanktest's Avatar


tanktest
05.08.2013 , 01:19 AM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Honestly, 'have fun' groups are the worst ones. 99% of the time they're better off replacing a 'fun guy' with a PUG and they'll live longer. The guys who 'have fun' are the DPS breaking my CC, or the healer that gets one shot by 5 strong mobs. Even if you can heal for infinite amount of healing on the tank himself, the hardest pulls involve multiple Strong mobs coming from different directions, which is impossible for a tank to aggro them all, so the tank takes 25K damage, you heal 25K damage, and then the Strong mobs coming from the direction the tank can't cover one shots the healer.

The 5 droid pull has all 5 droids doing charged burst at the same time for 5K each. Then they also do their normal attack after that, so you're taking 25K damage + 5 direct attacks at the same time. It's likely some of it is going to miss/shielded so you'll usually live but this is an amount where survival is definitely not guaranteed. Same with the 5 dog pulls. If the tank survived without a CD it's not because the healer is good. It's because the tank was lucky some of those hits didn't connect. These HMs aren't that hard but if you don't take them seriously you will most definitely die. Now if you can ensure you're the only person dying I don't actually care very much, but there isn't exactly a lot of margin of error to ensure you're the only one paying a repair bill.

And you missed the whole point . I know the tanks I run with they want me to push the limits .. I did say we use CC as needed .. the fun I'm talking about you don't seems see what I mean .

Zombietroll's Avatar


Zombietroll
05.08.2013 , 05:55 AM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
I generally object to CC'ing either of those droids, at least as a healer. Because 1 of 2 things usually results from a tank that insists on CCing them:

A. My CC lands before the tank pulls, giving me agro on everything, and I die.
B. The tank pulls before I start casting my CC, and doesn't think to use a defensive, so by the time my CC lands and I get the tank targeted they are already at 30% health and dropping quickly, and die before my first real heal can land.

IMO, much better to just let the tank pull so he can already be setup with a bubble, hot, and I can be pre-casting. If the tank thinks to use a defensive, the pull is super easy (saber reflect FTW!). But even if they don't, as long as they can get agro on more than one thing, it is survivable.
I have definitely encountered what you speak of

Sometimes when I mezz pull, if I don't have full faith in the tank, I will start the cast and break it before it finishes over and over until I see force charge/jet charge animation. Then I simply let the cast go through and start healing. Biggest thing to watch for on that pull is line of sight on the tank.
Cheezeburger - Jedi Covenant - 55 Operative Healer

Zombietroll's Avatar


Zombietroll
05.08.2013 , 06:01 AM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Generally speaking the strong mobs are responsible for the most significant amount of damage so in a pure damage prevention model you might want to mez the strong first.

In light of the fact the strong mobs have signficantly less HP than an elite, it usually makes more sense to mez the elite first and burn down the strong instead.

Weak and standards are pretty much non factors because the tank can keep them stunned for a very long time with any attack that stuns weak/normal mobs and there's a lot of them.
I agree entirely with your last two bullets. What exactly is a damage prevention model though? Do strongs actually hit harder than elites? I get the feeling that during soloing they don't, but obviously that isn't what we are talking about here. I know a lot of elites have cast time or channeled abilities that can be interrupted, is this what would reduce their damage below the strongs?

Sorry if any of my questions are dumb, just trying to get a better grasp on what is doing the most damage, and what this model is you speak of.
Cheezeburger - Jedi Covenant - 55 Operative Healer

DarknessInLight's Avatar


DarknessInLight
05.08.2013 , 09:18 AM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by CrownofGold View Post
So I am just going to come out with it: healing these revamped flash points for level 55 is HORRIBLE. Why is it that Bioware thought that the best way to make level 55 FPs "challenging" was to give the healers an even more difficult time when they ALREADY had the hardest job in a group.

Before 55 lvl FPs, a well geared healer could help keep up an ok geared Tank. Now the tank has to be ridiculously almost over geared for the two to stand a chance. I am referring to the DOTs that need to be cleansed in fight like the first boss in Hammer Station, the last boss in Athiss and the last boss in Mandalorian Raiders.

I have been in far too many FPs where even healers in full 69's quit because of far too many wipes. I foresee a great deal of less people wanting to bear the burden of being blame for wipes (because they already were) and even less people will choose to be healers. This role is already by FAR the least played and less desirable role. It was ALREADY difficult to come across great healers let alone good ones.

Help me out guys, am I just having bad luck with the 55 FPs?
I would suggest reevaluating your ability rotation. As far as great healers go, my experience is that the Imps tend to have better healers than the Reps.
Jedi do not fight for Peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading, as slogans always are. Jedi fight for Civilization, because only Civilization creates Peace. - Jedi Master Mace Windu

Furiel's Avatar


Furiel
05.08.2013 , 10:20 AM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Zombietroll View Post
I agree entirely with your last two bullets. What exactly is a damage prevention model though? Do strongs actually hit harder than elites? I get the feeling that during soloing they don't, but obviously that isn't what we are talking about here. I know a lot of elites have cast time or channeled abilities that can be interrupted, is this what would reduce their damage below the strongs?

Sorry if any of my questions are dumb, just trying to get a better grasp on what is doing the most damage, and what this model is you speak of.
What he means by damage prevention model is tailoring your kill order and CCs in such a way to minimize the damage done to the group, especially the tank, thereby increasing group survivability, etc.

And as for the rest and how it all works, elites do more damage than strongs, it's just that the ratio or mob damage to mob HPs make it the smart move generally to kill weakest to strongest. I don't remember the numbers but I think it's something like a strong mob does 25% less damage than an elite, but the elite has twice as many HPs. So just to use some completely made up numbers to illustrate the point...

Say you have 1 strong and 1 elite in the group, takes 10 seconds to kill the strong and 20 to kill the elite, 30 seconds total fight time no matter what order. Elite does 400 dps, so at 25% less the stong will do 300 dps.

If you kill the elite first that's 400 dps for 20 seconds - 8000 damage taken, then the strong dies so that's another 300 dps for 30 seconds - 9000 damage taken for a total of 17000 damage in 30 seconds.

Conversely if you kill the strong first that's 300 dps for 10 second - 3000 dps, then the elite dies so that's another 400 dps for 30 seconds - 12000 damage taken for a total of 15000 damage in 30 seconds.

So by killing the strong first you prevent 2000 damage from being taken by the tank. And that in a nutshell is the damage prevention model. CC the strongest when possible and kill the weak first to minimize incoming damage and reduce the likelihood of deaths and wipes.
Furiel Plush
Cardinal and Raid Coordinator of The Church of Alvis

Zombietroll's Avatar


Zombietroll
05.08.2013 , 10:58 AM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Furiel View Post
What he means by damage prevention model is tailoring your kill order and CCs in such a way to minimize the damage done to the group, especially the tank, thereby increasing group survivability, etc.

And as for the rest and how it all works, elites do more damage than strongs, it's just that the ratio or mob damage to mob HPs make it the smart move generally to kill weakest to strongest. I don't remember the numbers but I think it's something like a strong mob does 25% less damage than an elite, but the elite has twice as many HPs. So just to use some completely made up numbers to illustrate the point...

Say you have 1 strong and 1 elite in the group, takes 10 seconds to kill the strong and 20 to kill the elite, 30 seconds total fight time no matter what order. Elite does 400 dps, so at 25% less the stong will do 300 dps.

If you kill the elite first that's 400 dps for 20 seconds - 8000 damage taken, then the strong dies so that's another 300 dps for 30 seconds - 9000 damage taken for a total of 17000 damage in 30 seconds.

Conversely if you kill the strong first that's 300 dps for 10 second - 3000 dps, then the elite dies so that's another 400 dps for 30 seconds - 12000 damage taken for a total of 15000 damage in 30 seconds.

So by killing the strong first you prevent 2000 damage from being taken by the tank. And that in a nutshell is the damage prevention model. CC the strongest when possible and kill the weak first to minimize incoming damage and reduce the likelihood of deaths and wipes.
Sounds legit and makes way more sense then the guy saying to CC strongs over elites
Cheezeburger - Jedi Covenant - 55 Operative Healer

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.08.2013 , 11:10 AM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Zombietroll View Post
I agree entirely with your last two bullets. What exactly is a damage prevention model though? Do strongs actually hit harder than elites? I get the feeling that during soloing they don't, but obviously that isn't what we are talking about here. I know a lot of elites have cast time or channeled abilities that can be interrupted, is this what would reduce their damage below the strongs?

Sorry if any of my questions are dumb, just trying to get a better grasp on what is doing the most damage, and what this model is you speak of.
Yes, in general elites hit harder after factoring their special moves, but special moves can be interrupted. On the other hand most Strong mobs simply hit that hard the whole time. So in a pure DPS concern, you can often negate a significant portion of an Elite mob's DPS by interrupting its moves, but you rarely have this option against Strongs who simply hit that hard the whole time. Of course, a Strong mob only has about 40% the HP of an Elite, so generally it's better to burn down the Strong first anyway. Of course there are always exceptions. For example any dual wielding Jedi/Sith Elite type are pretty much 100% DPS all the time and have no moves to interrupt. Burning down Strong mobs work about 99% of the time, but you need to remember the true damage dealers are usually the Strongs, not the Elites.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.08.2013 , 11:35 AM | #108
Elite mobs don't necessarily even do more damge than a Strong. Strong mobs are nearly 100% DPS all the time. The most representative example would be the dogs in Mandolorian Raiders. If you ever aggro one of those and you're not the tank you know even one of those can chew you up before you realize what's going on. There's no damage prevention short of hard stuns or killing them. All they do is attack and attack some more.

Take the same instance and you get the Elite droids. They will open the fight spending 1.0s casting Concussion Pulse, a KB that is unlikely to have any impact on your survivality (unless your healer is for some reason in melee range). They'll then spend 3.0s casting Cannon Storm, which may or may not do a lot of damage but should be interrupted 100% of the time. And only then they'll go back to actually attacking someone, and if you're on top of your interrupting game they'll quickly try to recast Cannon Storm and Concussion Pulse once the lockout on ability is over, which should do no damage to you if your guys are good at interrupting. If you want to be clever you can even say use Force Charge to interrupt the first Cannon Storm, which has no lockout period so it will immediately try to cast Cannon Storm again and waste even more time doing no DPS.

Now of course most groups you get are the "Wat interrupt?" type and if the Elite does finish casting Cannon Storm he'll probably beat the DPS of a single dog, but he won't even beat two dogs and having a succesful Cannon Storm ought to be a relatively rare event. There's also the overriding factor of Strongs having about 40% the HP of an Elite.

Frog_brains's Avatar


Frog_brains
05.09.2013 , 11:27 AM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Zombietroll View Post
Sounds legit and makes way more sense then the guy saying to CC strongs over elites
one thing you're not factoring in is that all this time is that either one at any time will probably be taking some sort of aoe damage as well. i've found times as a shadow tank using, slow time and force breach, force wave (as a soft interupt) if i'm doing damage to the elite often times the strong will be almost dead just from that damage.

also i've noticed that the strongs in the FP's seem to be tuned as "glass cannons" hit hard but die easily

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
05.10.2013 , 04:05 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by CrownofGold View Post
So I am just going to come out with it: healing these revamped flash points for level 55 is HORRIBLE. Why is it that Bioware thought that the best way to make level 55 FPs "challenging" was to give the healers an even more difficult time when they ALREADY had the hardest job in a group.

Before 55 lvl FPs, a well geared healer could help keep up an ok geared Tank. Now the tank has to be ridiculously almost over geared for the two to stand a chance. I am referring to the DOTs that need to be cleansed in fight like the first boss in Hammer Station, the last boss in Athiss and the last boss in Mandalorian Raiders.

I have been in far too many FPs where even healers in full 69's quit because of far too many wipes. I foresee a great deal of less people wanting to bear the burden of being blame for wipes (because they already were) and even less people will choose to be healers. This role is already by FAR the least played and less desirable role. It was ALREADY difficult to come across great healers let alone good ones.

Help me out guys, am I just having bad luck with the 55 FPs?
I play a healer and I am mostly in 69 gear. I rarely run into problems if the tank knows what he/she are doing. if they do not, I can still manage, but mandalorian raiders can be get really difficult if dps gets attacked by the hounds or turrets. Also its final boss is much harder than the other fps and its difficult for the tank to maintain threat on the turrets. Also, competent dps can help a lot (and these are rare).

The problem with the new PvE content is the damage became too spiky as result of lower armor, shield and absorption rating, so if the healer is not on the tank like white on rice you can wipe very easily, which creates a problem of healer pulling threat. Before I used to wait 5-7 secs to make sure that tank got agro, and start healing after he goes below 25%. Now, in some pulls, if I wait 3-4 secs and tank did not use any defensive cool downs, its a wipe.

Athis last boss is very easy. Just avoid the purple circles and the fire, which are easy to avoid, and I would argue that a healer in 56 gear can heal it.