There is no good reasons why subscribers have to pay cartel coins in 2.1.

The discussion is about what we need to be able to play the game, not whether we need to play the game at all.

Those who want "fluff" can pay for it. If they don't want to pay what it costs, they obviously don't want it that badly.

Then buy it.

Then we share that much in common, at least.

What does "right" (or "wrong") have to do with it? Nothing. It's a game, not a social justice movement. If you think you're being ripped off, the solution is staring you in the face. Personally, if I feel a product or service is not giving me the value I want, I stop buying the product or service.

Alright then.

So in your opinion then is it perfectly acceptable for EA to impose that every character is Jedi Joe and all look exactly alike, with all the same stats and skills? Any deviation from this template results in extra charges?

That's all you "need" to play the game after all, everything else is just fluff.

He also likes to dissect a post line by line and sometimes even word by word, because he thinks it makes him look like a smart ***. Tip: It does.

That would be fine, theoretically. Do you think lots of people would want to play that game?

Exactly. But as we both acknowledge, people like "fluff." But no one needs "fluff" to be able to play the game. "Fluff" enhances the game if it's the kind of "fluff" that enhances your game. I don't care about playing a Cathar, so I'm glad I won't have to pay for it as part of a hypothetically more expensive RotHC. If you want to play a Cathar, for example, you have that option. If it's worth it to you, you'll buy it. If it's not, you won't. What, exactly, is the problem?

As I've been trying to point out, an MMO does need fluff. Fluff is not optional in an MMO any more than a customizable UI is. It has been standard in all sub-based MMO's since they began and a semi-failed product is not the one to be trying to dictate new levels of what is and isn't included.

The problem is that TOR was always seriously lacking in the fluff department from day 1, and still is. The level of customization, the variety of armor looks, and other fluff was comparable to what other games launched with 10 years ago. This is really not acceptable for a supposed A+ MMO from an A+ developer that made its name on RPG's. Launch deficiencies in a game can be excused if they correct it later but when they finally get around to correcting it... Surprise! It's now not considered "part of your subscription" but instead, you have to pay extra for it. Then they added insult to injury by shifting it all to gambling bags so you can't even directly buy the fluff you want.

The Cathar are just the tipping point to a lot of people. Again, this was promised for about a year now, when the CM didn't even exist, so logically one would assume it would have been included with a subscription since there was no other way to charge for it.

It's "wrong" because this game failed and went F2P specifically because of missing features and functionality that every other MMO seems perfectly able to do. They should have at the very least bit the bullet for another year or two, added in what people thought was missing, and then if that still doesn't improve player numbers, then you go F2P. If any game publisher in the world can afford to invest resources in an underperforming MMO, it is EA.

Ok, pretty much anything that has to do with the game can be defined that way. You in fact do not NEED to play at all. You need oxygen. You need food. You do not need Star Wars The Old Republic.

Also, pretty much anything in the game that allows you to play, sans your actual connection and perhaps computer equipment could be considered a convenience feature. It is convenient that I can see my character in 3d space instead of playing the game only in text. It is convenient that players can not loot me when they kill me like in other games in the past.

Yes, I get it. We dont really need all this extra stuff to play 1-50, which I think was the point that you were making.

So....do you keybind or are you a clicker? See, I'm a clicker because I'm just not coordinated enough to work with keybinds. I tried, it just doesn't work for me. So I play the entire game, in fact all my games clicking.

Could I say that the ability to keybind is something that is a convenience and is not actually needed? From my perspective I could care less whether or not there are keybind options. But I would imagine some people would find the lack of keybinding pretty much a barrier they could not surmount....

Hence my point that what players consider they "need" to play or continue to play a game is, in fact, speculative. A player decides what they need and do not need to continue to be a patron. Want or need, it is a selection of options that this person decides is necessary for them to be a customer.

We've moved past that.

It's a matter of degree and what people are willing to tolerate. Do you think subscribers would tolerate having to unlock, with CC, the ability to do keybindings? If you (hypothetically speaking) think Cathar are as fundamental to the game as most people consider keybinding, then I guess the game is going to be fundamentally lacking for you. But I doubt enough people would feel similarly to make a difference.

Well, we agree on something. If a player is dissatisfied with the game, the solution is right there. Venting is one thing, but people saying things like "It's unfair to make subs pay for Cathar" is nonsensical because fairness has nothing to do with it.

Every game has "fluff" because people find "fluff" appealing. But not every person finds every kind of "fluff" appealing. For example, I would not pay 1 thin dime of real money for housing, but others would. I don't want to be "forced" to pay for housing in a housing-oriented update that also includes major updates to other parts of the game. Same with Cathar and the customization kiosk. If you want to play a Cather or get your character a haircut, pay for it and do it.

Obviously not lacking enough to make you stop subscribing, even though it's been that way since "day 1."

If it's so awful, why are you still here? Just to complain about how awful it is?

If the game sees a mass exodus of subscribers, then I guess you can say '"I told you so."

So, again, why are you subscribing to a "failed" MMO?

We agree to a point. Fairness is, again, the eye of the beholder thing.

Remember, we are talking about a vehicle for profit, so normal common sense goes out the window. Let me set it up this way...

"If Bioware expects to keep players like me as a customer and feels like I should remain"....it is unfair to make subs "like me".....pay for Cather.

That is essentially what is being said I would expect. To simply say "it is unfair" is simplifying it, but I think that the meaning is implied...that Bioware can not expect that players that expected Cather to be included with the expansion will not be upset or react to the race being a paid feature.

It is, in fact, unwise IMO to make a change like this and not explain themselves.

For me, personally, I support it being a paid feature if it will benefit the game...if not, it should not be paid. Only time will tell I would think.

Also, I think your approach of using "why are you here" is far less productive than even the worst complaints about a game. The game can not survive without critical feedback IMO.

It is indeed. And BWEA is the entity who decides what they're gonna include for "free." You hold the ultimate veto power in your individual case, though, because you can unsubscribe if you are unhappy with the value you feel you are getting for your monrey.

If that's how you (hypothetically) feel, no one can fault you for that.

Time will tell if it's unwise or not. What kind of explanation would you expect beyond what we've seen so far? Looks pretty straightforward to me. This is the way modern sub/F2P MMOs work.

Regardless of whether there is a cost to using the customization kiosk, and regardless if you can pay that cost from the monthly grant, I think the solution is simple:

Just put more time and effort into character creation. If you aren't happy with how your toon looks, don't click play.

If I happen to have the funds needed to change appearance, and I happen to be bored one day, I might tinker with a change. Aside from that possibility, I have no plans to revamp my toons.

I am, however, very interested in the name change ability. I have some remorse over names I lost due to server mergers. A second chance to rename them something better is appealing.