There is no good reasons why subscribers have to pay cartel coins in 2.1.

Thrived? Yes -- past tense.

What games are currently running that are surviving on a sub-only model, aside from EVE (which is a niche game) and WoW?

SWTOR, Aion, LotRO, EQ, EQII, GW2, TSW, Tera -- the list goes on.

Although, FFXI is still sub-based. And they are getting/just got a new expansion pack for it. Still going -- maybe not terribly strong, but still going.

Maybe the real problem is more ThemePark vs SandBox and not B2P/F2P/P2P. Regardless -- *most* companies aren't releasing games that are purely subscription based anymore, because it is too big of a risk. That market disappeared when WoW came out -- and VERY few games have been able to buck the trend of the market.

Maybe it's because of greed, as well. NO company is going to make billions off of a subscription-based MMO. It is too expensive to keep the players happy and make a good enough game, to warrant only charging a subscription.

I have played a few of the f2p or hybrid games in your list. The problem is that I did not find them worth a sub (although I am still subbed to swtor).. The market did not disappear with WOW. I actually think that the demand is stronger that it ever was. Look at the initial sales of swtor, a delcared sub based game at launch. The issue is in the industry. It cannot produce a product worth subbing and so must find ways of getting money out of people.

The logical conclusion of your last sentence is that companies are to produce bad games and then try to squeeze some money from them while splending the minimal amount of time and money to bring them along and provide something of quality to customers. Perhaps with that mind set, what we are seeing is a self forfilling path of failure..

Edit - WOW has made billions. How many f20 or hybrids in your list have. Indeed, how much has swtor made. Can you clearly see swtor maintaining current levels of income a few monthsout.?

If I give you a ten spot to buy some ice cream, did it cost you 10 dollars?

Eh, I don't understand why people thought WoW as a game was worth the money. I stayed with it for so long because I had friends that continued. I had more fun in FFXI -- but had friends leave that too quickly to move over to the next games that came out.

I think the problem is BOTH on the customers AND on the companies. The games they are making are certainly half-assed (most of them, not all). But at the same time -- the MMO customer base is the hardest of them all to please.

We're locusts. We will always jump ship to the next biggest thing, only to realize it isn't as good as we thought. I think the problem is how much hype the community makes about things before they happen (both in a negative and positive way).

I am in the same mind set as most, if we pay for a sub at least give us features like the customizer with in game credits while non-subbers use coins.

It is getting to the stage where the devs are now more interested in bringing in features that will garner more money even from subbers rather than fixing issues that are a year or more old.

Was RotHC worth the price? Not in my view, no... All it did was introduce more features that will mean use of more coins.

Eventually it will go down the path of the pay to win which would mean the end, nobody wants that. Luckily so far its all cosmetic but it won't be for long when people tire of it. Just like the customizer people will be fed up paying for a couple of thousand coins just to change the look of a character, nonsense.

I was going to go back to FFXI then I remembered............ what it costs

£8.29 per month for the game
£0.70 per character per month

Game plus 10 alts = £15.29 per month

No thanks :P

The trend of the market is to clone WoW. It's a strategy with no record of success at all.

TOR thought they could sell the game on high-quality production values alone and it failed. It's the Hollywood approach to gaming. It works in Hollywood because a movie makes 95% of its money in the first month. This doesn't work in MMO's because the game must retain interest for many months or even years. Production values may help with that, but gameplay is what will keep people subscribed.

TOR is like a Michael Bay movie, all flash and bang and no substance. Transformers made a gajillion dollars but 50 years from now it will be long forgotten, while people will still be watching Bladerunner because it has production values and substance.

Have you played FFXI before?

Because there's REALLY no reason to have 10 alts. . . .or even 1, unless it's a mule. . .

I should be slapped -- but I still haven't watched Bladerunner. . .

In my defense, the graphic style of it makes me physically sick. Watching the first few moments and I'm ready to run for a bucket :-(

I would do it just because >.< (I mean 10 alts)