Pay to Win???

I honestly do not understand you.

There is no way to my knowledge, where you can buy top equipment from the cartel shop.

And that there are bad players around, does not change the fact, that even these bad players are unable to just "pay to win" as the OP implies.

because you can pay for a raid spot. wave your magic credit card, get millions of credits, and buy your way into a group that gives you the drops. the cash shop allows you to do that very easily with just real cash. If it wasnt for the pay 2 win cash shop you would have to work in game to earn enough credits.

Is that snark or sarcasm? Either way... it looks cute on you.

Is the CC -> Items -> GTN -> credits an approach? Sure.

Is it the most efficient approach to credits in this game? No, it really isn't..... except for brand new players.. and they are not in any position to "win" anything really.

There are faster and more efficient ways in game to gain more credits in a shorter amount of time for anyone who is enterprising at all.

So.. since players can do it faster and better in game... it's conflated to say that a CCM -> credits approach is P2W.

I get that for you personally... it was a win.... but any objective discussion about P2W needs to meet a broad litmus test both in the common definition of the term as well as a fair comparison to in game alternatives.

I agree they can't pay to win, they can buy this crap on the market and it makes no difference same thing for a sub they may get the top of the line gear but if they can't play the class worth a crap it means nothing.

I was disputing the claim this game is pay to win...somehow you and me got off track mostly my fault sorry.

Protip: with your method.. you STILL HAVE TO WORK IN GAME. Bioware does not sell credits directly on the CCM. But even if they did...simply having credits does not equal P2W in an MMO.

First off - There is no such thing as pay2win in PVE content. You're not competing with other players therefor there is no way for other players to be griefed by your having the best gear. Also, even if you pay guilds to run you, you still have to run the content to get the gear, so essentially you're doing the same as every other pve'er.

Secondly - Currently there is no way to buy the best PVP gear with Cartel Coins or ingame credits. Granted, I haven't pvp'd since the patch, but that is my understaning that only warzone coms buy the best gear. Sure you could pay a team to be one of their members, but there is no gaurentee that you will win and most likely, you'll be the member that holds the team back. And you'll still have to grind those wins like everyone else.

Someone that has to "pay for a raid spot" is going to be a terrible player. Can you imagine? Nobody wanted them in their raid group so he had to resort to bribery. :eeeysh:

I'd take a poor player who knows what red circles on the ground are, over some rich-disposable-income tool any day.

That guy who thinks he "won" by paying for a raid spot only wins "contempt" in my book.

Even if you do this wierd stuff you say, even the richest player would not get even the slightest advantage over any other player, who completed the same OP and got the same equipment.
There still would be not even a small percentage of advantage to one with more money. Everything can be aquired without spending money in the cartel shop.
What you describe is a shortcut to... well to what really ? Someone who does that is in my opinion taking away from his own gaming experience. And okay, someone who uses the cartel market to gain 100 million credits and spends those credits on getting a pro-team to pull him through S&V-HM every week will have a lot of equipment, before I got it... but once I got the same equipment, he can spend a million $ in the cartel shop and will still not have any advantage over me.... more likely a disadvantage, as I most likely will know how to effectively play my char better.

Just go naked and you can be king of the hill in pvp or did they fix that...

Another thought on this "winning" thing. I know a few players that I personally would consider are "winning".

One of them is a top-PvP player. Really really really good. I've been in Mumble when he shows up in the opposing team, and I hear my people start muttering "Oh s**t"

Another is top-raider. He's the first person I know personally to get a 72 mainhand. Practically every raid group I've been in with him is a success. He can probably make up for two other bad players in a raid group, all by his lonesome.

Another is a top crafter. Before 2.0 dropped he had learned over a dozen of the grade 27 armorings, relics, mods, enhancements and barrels. And every single one was learned through actual drops RE'ed, not by learning someone else's schemetics.

Another is a big credit-banker-type. Most of his credits were made throughout selling level 15-45 stuff, or by playing the GTN and buying low selling high.

Do you know what all of these players have on common? They don't spend money in the Cartel Market.

Conversely, I know a few people that spend money on the CM, and turn it into credits. They're all average players. Buying credits didn't seem to somehow magically make them better players in any way.

In all the time since the Cartel Market has been released, I've yet to meet a single player that was "winning" due to spending cash in the CM.