As you all are well aware of, the bolster system has been plagued with bugs since its creation. Although it seems that said bugs will be stamped out in a coming update (I am referring the augment one) the whole implementation of bolster is wrong

First off, Let's look at PVP and how it should be

-Player gets bolster to a certain fixed stat amount regardless of gear they are currently wearing/not wearing

-Player buys Partisan gear. Each of these pieces is 10% better than any bolstered slot

-Player buys Conqueror gear which has a 25% stat bonus over a bolstered player.

This system would create a PVP environment not unfriendly to new guys but also give the dedicated PVPers an advantage. It would prevent a PVEer with fully augmented 69's and above to waltz into a WZ and actually have an advantage over players without full Conqueror gear.

The current system in place:

-Stats (mostly expertise) are bolstered to a lower level than what PVP gear would give

-PVE gear still has far better main stat and endurance on it

-PVP gear is inferior to PVE gear unless fully geared out in conqueror

PVP gear should be a progression, not something where any PVE player can come in and play far more competitively than a new 55 who has just been bolstered because they simply haven't done any PVP.

An example of a bolstered player would be the following

Not bolstered

Main stat: 2700

Crit: 20%

Surge: 68%

Expertise: 0

Bolstered

Main stat:2000

Crit: 16%

Surge: 65%

Expertise: 1700

Those numbers are not specifically 10% less than a partisan geared person, rather an estimate, but the idea is that gear can be down bolstered to a fixed rate for entrance level PVP.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.

I agree with the post

While it is quite difficult to make a bolster that isn't going to be "exploited" or people doing unconventional things to make get the most out of their gear.

The solution you presented would be considerably cleaner than the current situation. With augments now still pestering us.......

The only part where i differ is these large stat gains you are speaking of. I'm not sure if you mean 25% more overall stats or just expertise but either way the gap is just too large. It should be max 10% and IMO less. The gear grind is there only for the carrot on the stick not to give you an insurmountable advantage over other players.

Other than that do what the man says, simplify bolster

I agree with the post

 

While it is quite difficult to make a bolster that isn't going to be "exploited" or people doing unconventional things to make get the most out of their gear.

 

The solution you presented would be considerably cleaner than the current situation. With augments now still pestering us.......

 

The only part where i differ is these large stat gains you are speaking of. I'm not sure if you mean 25% more overall stats or just expertise but either way the gap is just too large. It should be max 10% and IMO less. The gear grind is there only for the carrot on the stick not to give you an insurmountable advantage over other players.

 

Other than that do what the man says, simplify bolster

I feel that an across the board difference in stat would suit PVP gear better. Bolstered people can still compete, but time and dedication for PvPers would also be rewarded. The 25% was a general estimate or benchmark. It's totally Bioware's discretion, but I am advocating for a difference that is noticeable (Maybe 15% for Conqueror) without the 70% difference that we previously had between recruit and EWH gear.

This bolster change could apply to all levels 1-55, in turn balancing lowbee queues as well so we don't have snipers shooting other classes for 7k a pop.

PVP gear should be a progression, not something where any PVE player can come in and play far more competitively than a new 55 who has just been bolstered because they simply haven't done any PVP.

Lemme see if I get this straight. You want a cap on bolstered stats. Let's just call that X.

- Partisan gear X + 10%

- Conqueror gear X + 25%

And you see this as a fix? Gear gaps of 10, 15, and 25% is considered "fair"?

PvP should be about competition, not gear. The gear grind that exists now offers a very low gear gap (less than 5%) advantage for those who are truly concerned about gear progression and having the absolute best min/max.

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but reintroducing (and increasing) a gear gap is not the answer to the problem with PvP.

Lemme see if I get this straight. You want a cap on bolstered stats. Let's just call that X.

- Partisan gear X + 10%

- Conqueror gear X + 25%

And you see this as a fix? Gear gaps of 10, 15, and 25% is considered "fair"?

 

PvP should be about competition, not gear. The gear grind that exists now offers a very low gear gap (less than 5%) advantage for those who are truly concerned about gear progression and having the absolute best min/max.

 

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but reintroducing (and increasing) a gear gap is not the answer to the problem with PvP.

so its fair for pve derp players to have such better stats then pvp players am i right? news flash mmos dont require that much skill to play, unless you count the number of healers and smashmonkeys skill. Like it was on warhammer online, the ammount of "skill" was the size of your zerg.

Lemme see if I get this straight. You want a cap on bolstered stats. Let's just call that X.

- Partisan gear X + 10%

- Conqueror gear X + 25%

And you see this as a fix? Gear gaps of 10, 15, and 25% is considered "fair"?

 

PvP should be about competition, not gear. The gear grind that exists now offers a very low gear gap (less than 5%) advantage for those who are truly concerned about gear progression and having the absolute best min/max.

 

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but reintroducing (and increasing) a gear gap is not the answer to the problem with PvP.

it's just numbers. Make it 3% and 6% . That doesn't change his idea. Bolster is failing because it's way too complex, they are trying to make the hardcore raider better than the casual raider who is better than the fresh 50, all the while maintaining that all pvp gear is better than pve gear but without having a significant gear gap anywhere. It would be awesome, but i don't think they'll make it work.

Lemme see if I get this straight. You want a cap on bolstered stats. Let's just call that X.

- Partisan gear X + 10%

- Conqueror gear X + 25%

And you see this as a fix? Gear gaps of 10, 15, and 25% is considered "fair"?

 

PvP should be about competition, not gear. The gear grind that exists now offers a very low gear gap (less than 5%) advantage for those who are truly concerned about gear progression and having the absolute best min/max.

 

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but reintroducing (and increasing) a gear gap is not the answer to the problem with PvP.

Either that, or make PvP gear on par with PvE gear for PvE content. Which of these seems more reasonable to you?

i think the best way is simply remove the bolster at 55, it just doesnt make sense, if you want to pvp you should HAVE to equip the pvp gear and the same for pve. + the bolster is just to complicated its like the character you are building outside the warzone is totaly diferent inside, because of some derp random bolster.

Bioware should have given EVERYONE (by mail) a recruit set for level 55 with the same expertise as partisan (2018) with 5% less stats, non moddable and without set bonus (using the same armour textures as Elite War hero). ---> would be your starting point if you wanted to pvp. (more or less like the classic gear works for the pveres).

Bolster shouldn't exist in 55. End of story. Why not go back to giving a free lousy pvp gear set like the recruit days, and then tier up from there?

Its a shame how expertise works in the new system. It's making me not want to PvP at all. Even after 2.0.1, got the full Partisan gear, get melted by someone in PvE. Just doesnt make sense.

Stop trying to please the masses, and rather keep pvp to pvp and pve to pve. If someone comes into a 55 WZ with PvE gear where there was no bolster, they deserve to be melted down hardcore.

The new bolster system is the equivalent of HM operation in Partisan gear: encouraging players to not abide by the modus operandi of their community.

Here's what's wrong with bolster: expertise.

expertise is an irrelevant stat invented to separate PvP and PvE gear. there is no other purpose for expertise.

what does bolster do? it balances expertise of everyone in the WZ. banter back and forth all you want about exploits and gear progressions and bolster giving gear sets X, Y, Z certain advantages. the fact of the matter is that bolster counteracts expertise at a fundamental level in end game WZs.

bolster in lowbie WZs is somewhat broken, as poorly geared players seem to be rewarded with higher stats than better geared players (often of considerably higher level). however, there is no expertise (theoretically) on lowbie gear (recall they even took it off the wh/ewh gear). so whether or not bolster adds expertise is irrelevant, since everyone who enters the WZ (again, theoretically) is in all PvE gear. in that respect, it's an even playing field.

the underlying issue as I see it, then, is that level 55 PvP (dys)functions on two (more or less) contradictory systems: bolster and expertise. the problems people are experiencing with bolster are, I think, a direct result of the bolster mechanic first being a contradiction to expertise, then trying to adjust for this fundamental, underlying difference by...bolstering more.

If you will, the current system tries to remedy the problem of mixing oil with water by adding...more oil. it's not going to mix. there will be more oil, so the effect of the oil might begin to dominate. but why not just get rid of the water in the first place?

:2cents:

edit: to be clear, I do not advocate abolishing expertise. honestly, I would rather not have bolster at 55. however, I do advocate getting rid of one or the other. the two systems undermine each other. and I wouldn't care if everyone in the WZ was given exactly the same gear (per class/spec). I'd be cool with that. the system, as it stands now, though, doesn't work well.

PVE gear is not the best for PVP and here is why.

Without exploiting, my PVE tank set (mostly 66/69 gear with a couple 61/63s left), actually gets far less expertise and zero stat gain from bolster than Partisan would have. Right now it is only about 1700 expertise, the healer I go with only gets 1630 on her gear (she's got a slightly better mix of 66/69). In fact, just replacing the hilt on my EWH DPS saber (from EWH 63 to crafted 66), results in a huge drop in expertise (from 1900+ down to 1799).

The issue is not, wearing PVE and bolster giving better stats than PVP gear, the issue is wearing PVE, AND exploiting the bugs in bolster to get MUCH better stats than intended. If eveyone played right, you'd see that PVP gear has a definate advantage with expertise, and PVE gear has an advantage with stats. The problem lies not in the system but in the exploiting of the system.

As long as there are bugs that can be exploited in bolster, you will see it not working as intended.

PVE gear is not the best for PVP and here is why.

 

Without exploiting, my PVE tank set (mostly 66/69 gear with a couple 61/63s left), actually gets far less expertise and zero stat gain from bolster than Partisan would have. Right now it is only about 1700 expertise, the healer I go with only gets 1630 on her gear (she's got a slightly better mix of 66/69). In fact, just replacing the hilt on my EWH DPS saber (from EWH 63 to crafted 66), results in a huge drop in expertise (from 1900+ down to 1799).

 

The issue is not, wearing PVE and bolster giving better stats than PVP gear, the issue is wearing PVE, AND exploiting the bugs in bolster to get MUCH better stats than intended. If eveyone played right, you'd see that PVP gear has a definate advantage with expertise, and PVE gear has an advantage with stats. The problem lies not in the system but in the exploiting of the system.

 

As long as there are bugs that can be exploited in bolster, you will see it not working as intended.

There is no problem with system but the problem is with people exploiting the system? That is the very definition of contradictory. If people can exploit the system that easily, the system is a failure. Regardless, Foxmob is correct. Bolster completely defeats the purpose of expertise because it's sole purpose is to separate PVP from PVE. Since I can just walk into a wz with pve gear on and bolster will maker sure I have the correct expertise, it makes the stat irrelevant. As it was stated you can create the most elaborate formula for bolster but it will still have no place in 55 pvp. PVE gear does not belong in wzs and pvp gear does not belong in ops, plain and simple.

There is no problem with system but the problem is with people exploiting the system? That is the very definition of contradictory. If people can exploit the system that easily, the system is a failure. Regardless, Foxmob is correct. Bolster completely defeats the purpose of expertise because it's sole purpose is to separate PVP from PVE. Since I can just walk into a wz with pve gear on and bolster will maker sure I have the correct expertise, it makes the stat irrelevant. As it was stated you can create the most elaborate formula for bolster but it will still have no place in 55 pvp. PVE gear does not belong in wzs and pvp gear does not belong in ops, plain and simple.

TL;DR version:

The idea for bolster works great, the implementation of it sucks right now because it's filled with holes and exploitable issues. Once those issues are fixed, bolster should be an adequate means to replace Recruit Mk-X gear, while seperating PVP gear and it's purpose, from PVE gear and it's purpose. The problem right now is the exploits, and we shouldn't judge the new bolster when people are purposely abusing it every way they can.

Detailed Version:

You will not have the correct expertise, look at the numbers I've posted. If you walk into warzones with grade 66/69 PVE gear your expertise drops off considerably. My tank set is.. 1 Black Market Implant, 1 crafted level 54 Implant, BH Earpiece, 2 Campaign Relics, Rakata Saber, Dreadguard Shield Generator, Grade 69 Chest/Wrist/Belt/Head(with 61 armoring in head), Grade 66 Legs/Boots, Campaign Gloves... My expertise is 1700 from bolster. Once I convert my old campaign/DG grade stuff over to 66, bolster will horribly axe expertise down to around 1200-1500 expertise (at the current rate of loss, hard to tell if the hilt and armoring on mismatched mods in pieces is affecting bolster).

So if you think someone rolling into warzones in Basic comm gear is going to be anywhere close to PVP gear in expertise, you would be wrong. It actually has a worse ratio of expertise than Recruit Mk-2 vs EWH did, and that's not even factoring in the change to the DR on expertise. Before you could drop 15-20% expertise and be effectively unchanged since most of the gains from expertise came on the lower end of the scale. Now, unless you are gaining stats in direct relation to the drop in expertise (20% drop in expertise = 20% gain in stats), you are coming out at a net loss in effectiveness. Right now as it stands, I am losing 15% expertise, for a gain of 10% stats, by using PVE gear. I'm sure it'll get alot worse as my PVE gear gets better.

Hilts, Barrels, and perhaps Armorings seem to have the largest effect on expertise reduction. My DPS set only has a 66 hilt that I recently crafted, it dropped my expertise by over 100 points (1930 to 1799). Everything else in the set is my old EWH turned Dreadguard. I'll find out when I try my tank set later since I got a new hilt for that rakata saber. I suspect it'll drop to around 1630, which is what the healer I run with is getting from her PVE gear. Since we both have comparable gear except for the saber, I expect to fall somewhere around that level.

If you think a mix of 61/63/66/69 PVE gear with 1630 expertise = Partisan, or god forbid, Conquerer.. I'm sorry but you would be wrong. The only time PVE gear even comes close to Partisan is.. if it's Dreadguard or the old EWH or lower, and in that case it's bolstered up to Partisan in level in stats (Although DG/old EWH actually has less expertise from bolster than full Partisan set has, and next to zero stat gain, it's single digit gains). One could argue the system as failed in implementation (ie being exploitable, filled with bugs, and other "features" people can take advantage of), arguing that it has failed in inception is completely wrong. It still does favor grinding PVP gear to be most effective in warzones, since anything over grade 63 is penalized increasing harsher with respect to expertise gains from bolster, and grade 63 and higher get no stat gains from bolster.

So change the numbers, say +5%/+10%, but there needs to be some sort of reward for people who choose to mostly/exclusively PvP.

Either that, or make PvP gear on par with PvE gear for PvE content. Which of these seems more reasonable to you?

PvP gear has always been viable in PvE endgame. The Battlemaster PvP sets were nearly as good as Columi, and performed well enough to get into Hard Mode Ops to start earning Rakata. I never, ever had Tionese or Columi gear on any of my characters.

Quoting this guy, but this goes for all of you...5% should be the maximum gear gap. There's absolutely no reason to have a gap bigger than that. NONE. Anyone claiming they deserve a 10-25% advantage is a horrible player looking to faceroll PUGs so they can flex their e-peens. That's all there is to it. Which of these is more fun?

A) A competitive match where you're using everything you have to win? Where the match is tight the whole way through and the winner is decided in the final few minutes?

B) Or a triple cap, or 6-0 Huttball match? A game where you destroy the other team to the point where they just give up and hang out near their spawn point if they don't bother to quit the warzone completely?

This is going to piss a lot of you off, but it's the simple truth. There are a lot of players out there, on these forums in particular, who choose B. PvP is only fun to you when rolling with a pimped out premade and facerolling PUGs. You're the same players who complain that there is no OWPvP in this game, but fail to understand why. You're the ones whining about Bolster, whining about class balance, and whining about why you can't 1v1 every other class in the game.

At the end of the day, not very many want to bother with PvP when they know they're going to get facerolled. Since 2.0 went live, queue times have been the shortest they've been for months. You derp players have far more newbs to farm now than you ever have. You choose to whine about how much Bolster is screwing you over because the PvEers have better stats than you, then in the same breath say that you want a gear advantage over them because these players are kicking your teeth in. See how much fun it is? This is what PvP has been like for them since launch. Now the shoe is on the other foot and the forum is drowning in tears.

At the end of the day, not very many want to bother with PvP when they know they're going to get facerolled. Since 2.0 went live, queue times have been the shortest they've been for months. You derp players have far more newbs to farm now than you ever have. You choose to whine about how much Bolster is screwing you over because the PvEers have better stats than you, then in the same breath say that you want a gear advantage over them because these players are kicking your teeth in. See how much fun it is? This is what PvP has been like for them since launch. Now the shoe is on the other foot and the forum is drowning in tears.

I definitely lose more often after 2.0 and I'm a big supporter of Bolster. It's rather obvious the guys I used to be able to faceroll now can actually do significant damage to me because the gear difference is gone. I don't see how that's a bad thing. It's also easier than before to fight off the dreaded 'premade', as long as you don't have a class composition mismatch (e.g. they have 2 healers you have none, or they have 3 smashers and you're on Voidstar). Take a map like Hypergates which is probably the closest thing to a deathmatch, I see all the guys who previously seem unkillable go down like flies to random noname guys on my side as long as they're not heavily supported by healers (which again is a class composition issue). In fact the only guys who are significantly disadvantaged are the guys using old PvP gear because we know Bolster is hosted on PvP gear below WH level.

Or how about level of PvE gear makes no difference at all. The bolster system only bolsters to a predetermined Recruit level of gear, some 5-10% lower than Conqueror.

You come into the zone wearing Battlemaster, you get bolstered to recruit. You enter in Arkanian -- same recruit level. You come in wearing pve 72s -- guess what, you get bolstered to the same recruit level.

That way PvE gear still works and pve'ers have a good starting point to start grinding PvP gear but in no way does it have an advantage over any other type of gear. After all, the goal is only to have a good starting point to grind PvP gear, not to PvP in your PvE gear for the life of the game.

EVERYONE who is not in Partisan or Conqueror gets bolstered to the SAME recruit gear level, whether you wear champion gear, arkanian gear or gear made up with planetary commendations.

i think the best way is simply remove the bolster at 55, it just doesnt make sense, if you want to pvp you should HAVE to equip the pvp gear and the same for pve. + the bolster is just to complicated its like the character you are building outside the warzone is totaly diferent inside, because of some derp random bolster.

 

Bioware should have given EVERYONE (by mail) a recruit set for level 55 with the same expertise as partisan (2018) with 5% less stats, non moddable and without set bonus (using the same armour textures as Elite War hero). ---> would be your starting point if you wanted to pvp. (more or less like the classic gear works for the pveres).

The problem with what you have suggested is that people simply won't wear the gear. I already laid out the reason: PVE gear can be more competitive than a PVP geared person. This was an issue even before 2.0. I had a friend who could wipe the floor with 100 expertise and full 63s against EWH people.

For those who suggest that the percentage should be lower. I have no issue with that. 5% and 10% could work fine. 70% difference in Min-maxed EWH gear was the thing I wanted to avoid.

This bolster fix, I will state again, could also fix lowbee queues, not just 55.

Lemme see if I get this straight. You want a cap on bolstered stats. Let's just call that X.

- Partisan gear X + 10%

- Conqueror gear X + 25%

And you see this as a fix? Gear gaps of 10, 15, and 25% is considered "fair"?

 

PvP should be about competition, not gear. The gear grind that exists now offers a very low gear gap (less than 5%) advantage for those who are truly concerned about gear progression and having the absolute best min/max.

 

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but reintroducing (and increasing) a gear gap is not the answer to the problem with PvP.

By your logic then we should just get rid of gear. Upon entering a warzone everyone gets "bolstered" to the exact same stat level. Would that be fun?

This is an mmo. Gear discrepancies are kind of the point.

OP I like your idea. It is logical and makes sense. If pve players step into a warzone and get an automatic expertise bolster even though it is not on their gear, it is only fair that their main stat and endurance get down bolstered in exchange.

I also agree with you about the the conqueror gear. THERE SHOULD BE A NOTICEABLE GAP between the top level pvp gear and someone not wearing pvp gear in a warzone. The discrepancy between partisan and conqueror should be less though imo. You should be able to be very completive in partisan gear and partisan gear is not hard to obtain. Anyone ************ about it being too hard to gear up is not even remotely serious about pvp and therefore is not entitled to an opinion about how pvp should be.

/signed

I used to support bolster but the more and more I think about ALL the complexities the more I think it need to be taken out of lvl 55 WZs. It is an absolute mess of rules, variations, problems and exploits.

I totally understand what they tried to do and I commend them for it. The problem is that PvP gear is rather pointless now and that simply isn't fair for those people who mainly play the game for the PvP aspect. We need expertise. That can't go away else PvE players could waltz into WZs with the best gear.

I can only think of a couple simple fixes to this mess:

1. If your gear slot is not PvP appropriate piece of gear, it is replaced by a flat stat false piece. The problem is people in powerful PvE gear who want to USE their PvE gear in PvP would have their gear replaced with even worse gear.

2. Just bolster expertise with no rules. Make it simple but make it very low. The problem with adding a ton of free expertise is that the system is artificially inflating the value of the gear beyond its gear level. The system should check for 500 expertise. If you don't have at least 500 expertise you get it for free...BUT THAT'S IT. You don't get any more free stats.

3. Scrap it. All these rules are a mess and its not possible to balance it correctly.

I don't understand why we need to have gear that only works in PvE and gear that only works in PvP.

Why can't top-tier equipment from either activity be similar in stat bonuses and different only cosmetically?

Then people could gear up however they want and still be able to play all of the end-game content.

I don't understand why we need to have gear that only works in PvE and gear that only works in PvP.

 

Why can't top-tier equipment from either activity be similar in stat bonuses and different only cosmetically?

 

Then people could gear up however they want and still be able to play all of the end-game content.

if you're serious, the reason is that you may have noticed that you have to earn your gear in PvE by defeating certain bosses. if you don't win the boss fight, you have no chance of getting that particular piece of gear. that gear then makes the fight easier each successive time as your ops grp "gears up." then they move on to the next raid or the hm version or whatever. you get the point, right? you earn gear in pve for doing well in pve so that you can then tackle the next challenge in pve.

the reason there's an extra stat in pvp (expertise in swtor, resilience in wow) is because without such a stat, it would be possible to skip the progression. for example, pre 1.2 swtor, champion gear was so good and so relatively easy to obtain that even if you were only interested in pve, you'd farm ilum for crates and load up on the champion gear until you could get your columi bonus or rakata drops. in sum: champion allowed players to skip the flashpoints and tionese tier entirely.

the same applies for pvp: dude could have run all through every pve encounter in the game and thrown on his full rakata gear (again, this worked pre 1.2) and have a gear advantage over 80% of the WZ, who were ppl in champion gear (there wasn't enough expertise to justify the loss of mainstats pre 1.2).

the existence of expertise makes sense. for that matter, so does bolster. the problem is that you don't need both of them. expertise is for a gear grind/gear gap system. bolster is for eliminating gear gaps. pick one, BW. make up your mind. the half-assed crap leads to complaints from both ends. do you feel like chinese finger cuffs yet?