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Scum and Villainy operation guide for both storymode & hardmode

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Scum and Villainy operation guide for both storymode & hardmode

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.26.2013 , 01:40 PM | #11
deleted
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
04.26.2013 , 03:54 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Rawrwafer View Post
Resilience blocks it. But the cd isn't over before the next shot, I've tried our defense cd but either it just missed or doesn't work.
Resilience and Deflection are mutually exclusive. For any given attack one will work and the other will not. Conversely, Battle Readiness is globally useful. So while you have 3 CDs as a Shadow, only 2 are useful for any given mechanic or ability.

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
For the record, The End is cast once every 50 seconds. So, 14 The Ends is a staggering 11 minutes, 40 seconds. Even off-tank + healer DPS could kill Sunder in that kind of time (especially since one of the healers would have time to hilariously field respec during this final phase, since the tanks almost never take any damage).
If its only cast every 50 seconds, any combination of Shadows and Guardians should be able to avoid The End mechanic indefinitely providing they swap between casts. Shadows have the benefit of the root breaker on Force Speed which Guardian's lack. If you instead meant that each tank has to face it every 50 seconds and its cast every 25 seconds, Guardian's also last 8 casts of The End counting only Warding Call and Saber Reflect.

I'm fairly confident that stacking Warding Call, Saber Ward and Enure would also survive an enraged The End and if the timing is perfect (and my above interpretation is correct) Guardian's would be able to survive The End mechanic almost indefinitely even post enrage since Saber Ward and Warding Call come off CD right as they are required again.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but by Overcharge Saber interlude post Enrage I assume you mean one of the The End casts were OS is used as the CD and presumably won't save you. I think you're forgetting the CD on Force Shroud, if both tanks drop combat, it won't be available for the next "OS window" and a tank will have to go down, presumably be battle rezed and repeat. This gives 11 post-Enrage The Ends before both tanks go down.

Ultimately though, I'd say its still much easier to just DPS race Tu'chuk unless your DPS is lacking.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.26.2013 , 04:40 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but by Overcharge Saber interlude post Enrage I assume you mean one of the The End casts were OS is used as the CD and presumably won't save you. I think you're forgetting the CD on Force Shroud, if both tanks drop combat, it won't be available for the next "OS window" and a tank will have to go down, presumably be battle rezed and repeat. This gives 11 post-Enrage The Ends before both tanks go down.
If both tanks drop combat during the The End cast, a DPS dies (well technically, you *can* time things just perfectly so that Force Shroud comes up in the nick of time because The End is a 5 second cast, but that's unbelievably hard to do). At that point, The End isn't going to be used again for 50 seconds, so it's equivalent to the OS interlude, except that you sacrificed one of your companions instead of taking it like a man. So again assuming 5 The Ends before hard enrage, we have the following:
  1. #1 Force Shroud
  2. #2 Force Shroud
  3. #1 Overcharge Saber
  4. #1 Force Shroud
  5. #2 Force Shroud (hard enrage)
  6. #1 and #2 Force Cloak, and #2 stealth rez's dead DPS
  7. #1 Force Shroud
  8. #2 Force Shroud
  9. #1 dies (battle rez)
  10. #1 Force Shroud
  11. #2 Force Shroud

So yeah, I think you're right: 11 The Ends pessimistically, 13 if the hard enrage happens at the beginning of a double-shroud cycle.

Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
Ultimately though, I'd say its still much easier to just DPS race Tu'chuk unless your DPS is lacking.
I originally made that same argument when my group's raid leader proposed killing Sunder last. The final reasoning was as follows.

First, killing Sunder last eliminates his Fixate mechanic as a serious threat. We only have one melee DPS, which exacerbates Fixate since it's always going on the same target. Our melee DPS is our second-highest parser (only narrowly behind our hybrid gunslinger), so it would be a very significant DPS loss if they were forced to be ginger about their range (to give tanks taunt time) during the Sunder burn phase. This DPS loss is eliminated entirely if we burn Tu'chuk before Sunder, since Sunder is kept away from everyone until his final phase (after Fixate is over).

Second, the soft enrage on Tu'chuk becomes unhealable basically once the tank's cooldowns run out. With two shadow tanks, we can get 36 seconds + delay time (how long you can wait before popping your first CD) by rolling Battle Readiness > Deflection > (swap) > Deflection (possibly + Battle Readiness). That's far, far less time than you get even if you can only negate a single The End. By killing Sunder last, we free up DPS to kill the adds, which takes pressure off of the healers in the final phase, while simultaneously increasing our DPS time during the soft enrage *and* improving our DPS uptime throughout the rest of the fight (gaining ground on the hard enrage).

While I don't think it's non-viable to kill Tu'chuk last with two shadow tanks, it just seems like it isn't optimal (especially if you have a melee DPS). All four of our DPS are ranking on the HM S&V bosses (two of them are consistently in the top 15), so I'm pretty confident in our ability to kill Tu'chuk last if we wanted to. It's just that killing Sunder last just gives us a much wider margin and a lot more control over the variables in the situation (e.g. adds, mistakes leading to DPS loss earlier in the fight, etc).
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
04.26.2013 , 06:28 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
If both tanks drop combat during the The End cast, a DPS dies (well technically, you *can* time things just perfectly so that Force Shroud comes up in the nick of time because The End is a 5 second cast, but that's unbelievably hard to do). At that point, The End isn't going to be used again for 50 seconds, so it's equivalent to the OS interlude, except that you sacrificed one of your companions instead of taking it like a man. So again assuming 5 The Ends before hard enrage, we have the following:
  1. #1 Force Shroud
  2. #2 Force Shroud
  3. #1 Overcharge Saber
  4. #1 Force Shroud
  5. #2 Force Shroud (hard enrage)
  6. #1 and #2 Force Cloak, and #2 stealth rez's dead DPS
  7. #1 Force Shroud
  8. #2 Force Shroud
  9. #1 dies (battle rez)
  10. #1 Force Shroud
  11. #2 Force Shroud

So yeah, I think you're right: 11 The Ends pessimistically, 13 if the hard enrage happens at the beginning of a double-shroud cycle.



I originally made that same argument when my group's raid leader proposed killing Sunder last. The final reasoning was as follows.

First, killing Sunder last eliminates his Fixate mechanic as a serious threat. We only have one melee DPS, which exacerbates Fixate since it's always going on the same target. Our melee DPS is our second-highest parser (only narrowly behind our hybrid gunslinger), so it would be a very significant DPS loss if they were forced to be ginger about their range (to give tanks taunt time) during the Sunder burn phase. This DPS loss is eliminated entirely if we burn Tu'chuk before Sunder, since Sunder is kept away from everyone until his final phase (after Fixate is over).

Second, the soft enrage on Tu'chuk becomes unhealable basically once the tank's cooldowns run out. With two shadow tanks, we can get 36 seconds + delay time (how long you can wait before popping your first CD) by rolling Battle Readiness > Deflection > (swap) > Deflection (possibly + Battle Readiness). That's far, far less time than you get even if you can only negate a single The End. By killing Sunder last, we free up DPS to kill the adds, which takes pressure off of the healers in the final phase, while simultaneously increasing our DPS time during the soft enrage *and* improving our DPS uptime throughout the rest of the fight (gaining ground on the hard enrage).

While I don't think it's non-viable to kill Tu'chuk last with two shadow tanks, it just seems like it isn't optimal (especially if you have a melee DPS). All four of our DPS are ranking on the HM S&V bosses (two of them are consistently in the top 15), so I'm pretty confident in our ability to kill Tu'chuk last if we wanted to. It's just that killing Sunder last just gives us a much wider margin and a lot more control over the variables in the situation (e.g. adds, mistakes leading to DPS loss earlier in the fight, etc).
I'll admit here, I'm still confused about this 50 second The End timing you mention. I assume you mean its actually every 25 seconds and as such each tank has to take one every 50 seconds with the swapping. If it is only every 50 seconds, the tanks can just alternate Resilience or Saber Reflect since it would be 100 seconds before they had to face another.

Assuming you have a Guardian or a Shadow tank and 30 seconds of lead time before you need to pop CDs, you need about 2500 DPS per DPS to get Tu'chuk down before the CDs run out. Given its a stand and deliver tank and spank (from a DPS perspective) with a dynamic start (ie, no windup on Merciless stacks). Add in DPS CDs and I don't see that being an issue.

Yes, if Tu'chuk enrages you're probably screwed whereas Sunder gives leeway for that and Tu'chuck is bounded pretty quickly by his damage output whereas Sunder is kiteable by a DPS if/when the tanks go down. I guess it really boils down to if you want to:
a) put the pressure on the tanks so the DPS and heals can slack off.
b) put the pressure on the DPS so the tanks don't have to worry about a 1 shot mechanic.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.26.2013 , 11:44 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
I'll admit here, I'm still confused about this 50 second The End timing you mention. I assume you mean its actually every 25 seconds and as such each tank has to take one every 50 seconds with the swapping. If it is only every 50 seconds, the tanks can just alternate Resilience or Saber Reflect since it would be 100 seconds before they had to face another.
It's 25 seconds. That was a somewhat forgetful computation on my part. I was going off of the cooldown on *my* Resilience, forgetting of course that my co-tank had also used his. Sorry for the misinformation.

Thus, 11 The Ends is 275 seconds. Still a heck of a lot longer than you can tank Tu'chuk, hard enrage or otherwise.

Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
Assuming you have a Guardian or a Shadow tank and 30 seconds of lead time before you need to pop CDs, you need about 2500 DPS per DPS to get Tu'chuk down before the CDs run out. Given its a stand and deliver tank and spank (from a DPS perspective) with a dynamic start (ie, no windup on Merciless stacks). Add in DPS CDs and I don't see that being an issue.
Did you factor in tank DPS into that as well? A shadow who is being hit frequently enough to exhaust 15 stacks of KW (which Tu'chuk does) can easily pull 1200 DPS. Even without being hit, 1100 is pretty common.

I'm not sure that 30 seconds of lead time is realistic. I haven't timed it out precisely, but it seems that Rising Fury stacks up once every 5 seconds or so (maybe faster). At 25% per stack, 30 seconds into the final phase is a 150% damage buff, which is nearly as bad as a straight-up hard enrage. Especially since the DPS can't concentrate on the adds, and thus the healers aren't able to straight-up mana dump on the tank, it seems that healing alone might require cooldowns popped around the 20 second mark (100% buff), which is a 56 second burn time.

I'm guessing that Rising Fury stacks more slowly than I'm remembering, because that would require each DPS to pull 3.1k for the full 56 seconds (in addition to the tanks pulling 1.1k a piece). Those kinds of numbers would make the boss almost unbeatable.

Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
a) put the pressure on the tanks so the DPS and heals can slack off.
b) put the pressure on the DPS so the tanks don't have to worry about a 1 shot mechanic.
Yep, that's basically it. I'm still of the opinion that the pressure applied in option a) is significantly less than the pressure applied in option b), assuming exactly even player skill across the raid group, but that's an opinion.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Justcae's Avatar


Justcae
04.27.2013 , 03:31 AM | #16
If you fail to beat the Tu'chuk "soft enrage", you are never going to beat Dread Master Styrak.

No need to complicate anything.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
04.27.2013 , 05:21 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
It's 25 seconds. That was a somewhat forgetful computation on my part. I was going off of the cooldown on *my* Resilience, forgetting of course that my co-tank had also used his. Sorry for the misinformation.

Thus, 11 The Ends is 275 seconds. Still a heck of a lot longer than you can tank Tu'chuk, hard enrage or otherwise.

Did you factor in tank DPS into that as well? A shadow who is being hit frequently enough to exhaust 15 stacks of KW (which Tu'chuk does) can easily pull 1200 DPS. Even without being hit, 1100 is pretty common.

I'm not sure that 30 seconds of lead time is realistic. I haven't timed it out precisely, but it seems that Rising Fury stacks up once every 5 seconds or so (maybe faster). At 25% per stack, 30 seconds into the final phase is a 150% damage buff, which is nearly as bad as a straight-up hard enrage. Especially since the DPS can't concentrate on the adds, and thus the healers aren't able to straight-up mana dump on the tank, it seems that healing alone might require cooldowns popped around the 20 second mark (100% buff), which is a 56 second burn time.

I'm guessing that Rising Fury stacks more slowly than I'm remembering, because that would require each DPS to pull 3.1k for the full 56 seconds (in addition to the tanks pulling 1.1k a piece). Those kinds of numbers would make the boss almost unbeatable.

Yep, that's basically it. I'm still of the opinion that the pressure applied in option a) is significantly less than the pressure applied in option b), assuming exactly even player skill across the raid group, but that's an opinion.
Using a 5 way split on DPS requirement it was ~2350 per. I upped the DPS contribution a bit since 1 of the tanks isn't getting hit so their DPS is much lower and the healers can't really contribute too much as the stacks get higher.

I also haven't timed the stacks for Tu'chuk but I was assuming 3 (worst case) and I'd put the top end at about 5 seconds. I also wasn't factoring in "real" CDs until 30s but you could easily bridge the gap to that point if needed with a relic/adrenal.

It's also worth noting (for both) that they aren't likely to be fully healed unless they've taken too much damage. On SM, I'm seeing that happen about 80-85% HP, about the time Vilus goes down so he's getting a good 10% damage lead from the tank alone.

a) vs b): a) remains constant regardless of gear while b) gets easier as you get more gear.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]