Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Absorb Adrenal: Pre-2.0 vs 2.0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Absorb Adrenal: Pre-2.0 vs 2.0
 

Panzerfire's Avatar


Panzerfire
04.23.2013 , 04:11 AM | #11
It's partially personal preference. The more shieldable hits you'll take during the 15 seconds use of the adrenal the more likely it is that the new one is better as you will get closer to the average mitigation gains. But if you're only going to take a few hits then it depends more on your luck with shielding and you may get more benefit from the new one than the rakata or you may not.

The new one might (as KBN pointed out) interact with your defence and defensive cooldowns, a fellow tank suggested using the new absorb + a shield/absorb relic which is a no go as you will hit higher DR curves, same if you use deflection which increases defence by 50% and lowers the benefit from shield/abs.

So go for whichever you want while keeping in mind that the new one is better, I like this choice between an average better mitigation cooldown and a worse but sure mitigation cooldown.
And definitely use the rakata one against stuff like Terminate on the Operations Chief (does 34k if you do not shield/defend). I facepalmed when I used deflection and the hit went through after I told my healers that I'll be fine and wouldn't take damage (around 22-23% chance to get hit but I want my invincible deflection back).

That all said, I'd argue that the rakata one is better as a tanking cooldown for use during high damage or transition phases which are the ones where you're most likely to die.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.23.2013 , 08:57 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Panzerfire View Post
So go for whichever you want while keeping in mind that the new one is better, I like this choice between an average better mitigation cooldown and a worse but sure mitigation cooldown.
And definitely use the rakata one against stuff like Terminate on the Operations Chief (does 34k if you do not shield/defend). I facepalmed when I used deflection and the hit went through after I told my healers that I'll be fine and wouldn't take damage (around 22-23% chance to get hit but I want my invincible deflection back).
Terminate is a tech attack. Pop Resilience/Dark Shroud and you will take 0 damage just as you intended. :-)
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Panzerfire's Avatar


Panzerfire
04.23.2013 , 05:56 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Terminate is a tech attack. Pop Resilience/Dark Shroud and you will take 0 damage just as you intended. :-)
Well.. I guess I've never confirmed shielding it so fair enough. I'll try it this week's HM, too bad that you can ignore the attack altogether once you get into 36-38k health region.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
04.23.2013 , 07:59 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Actually grall, I'm going to contradict you here. The nano-infused adrenal is actually *better* than the armor adrenal due to base class bonuses (e.g. Kinetic Ward). The math is as follows:

Spoiler


The results at the end are the most notable:

{shadow -> -0.0739487, guardian -> -2.79226, vanguard -> -0.373133}

This is to say that the nano-infused adrenal is strictly better than the exotech adrenal for all tanks, but especially guardians. Shadows can get away with either one, since the Nano-Infused adrenal is only *slightly* better than the Exotech for that class. (do note however that these values are not scaled by other mitigation mechanisms, most notably defense, meaning that the exact magnitude can be somewhat misleading)

Deciphering the Mathematica for more convenient work-checking, I'm basically examining the following equation:

DR((1675 + armor) * scalar) / DR(armor * scalar) - (ShieldBonus + Shield(375 + shield))(AbsorbBonus + Absorb(375 + absorb)) / (ShieldBonus + Shield(shield))(AbsorbBonus + Absorb(absorb))

Thus, I'm examining the ratio of mitigation improvement. Negative results indicate that the nano-infused adrenal is better than the exotech adrenal. The more negative the result, the better the nano-infused adrenal. Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I doubled all of the ratings and ran the calculation again, just to get an approximate idea of if this trend will continue into higher stat budgets: {shadow -> -0.066216, guardian -> -1.27925, vanguard -> -0.279283}.

So basically, the Nano-Infused adrenal is actually better than the Exotech across all stat budgets.
Even factoring in class bonuses to shield/absorb which (IMO) don't make less of a difference when compared to the class armour multipliers. I fail to see how a 6.5% boost to K/E DR falls behind an 8.4% boost to Shield when the Absorb % is less than 77% (which we just aren't going to see). Add into that, K/E DR applies to ALL K/E attacks while shield only has a chance to apply.

I believe you've made a mistake in the calculation and I may be wrong, Mathematica notation isn't my strong point. It looks like you have compared the relative increase the 2 adrenals apply to their respective mitigation component. That is to say, how much armour increases relative to base armour and how much shield/absorb increase relative to base shield/absorb. The relative increase to Shield/Absorb is much higher thanks to their notably lower starting values, especially for Guardians.

The important point there is that armour DR provides a MUCH higher contribution to DR than Shield/Absorb do with the possible exclusion of Shadows and while the relative increase in contribution from the specific stat is lower the absolute decrease in damage taken is greater.

EDIT:
I did another test and I'll post the numbers here. Again this is with my gear.
Armour DR
Base: 48.89%
Adrenal: 55.3%
6.41% increase

Shield*Absorb
Base: 10.88516%
Adrenal: 15.611585%
4.72% increase

Now for my Guardian at least, the Rakata Adrenal is still better but the numbers are a lot closer than I initially expected and it may vary for the other tank classes and may even reach a point where the Nano-Infused is better.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

steave's Avatar


steave
04.24.2013 , 12:31 AM | #15
I think what's throwing off your numbers is that armor is applied after shield - if you shield an attack, absorb applies to the entire damage, but armor only applied to the part left over once the absorb damage has been removed.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
04.24.2013 , 02:35 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by steave View Post
I think what's throwing off your numbers is that armor is applied after shield - if you shield an attack, absorb applies to the entire damage, but armor only applied to the part left over once the absorb damage has been removed.
They're both multiplicative so the order they're applied makes no difference to the final result.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

steave's Avatar


steave
04.24.2013 , 02:44 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
They're both multiplicative so the order they're applied makes no difference to the final result.
True, but then you can't just compare how many percent they improved - f.e. 0.0.56*0.1 is way less than 0.5*0.16. Increasing the smaller factor by a static amount results in a much greater increase than increasing the larger factor by the same amount.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.24.2013 , 09:48 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
I believe you've made a mistake in the calculation and I may be wrong, Mathematica notation isn't my strong point. It looks like you have compared the relative increase the 2 adrenals apply to their respective mitigation component. That is to say, how much armour increases relative to base armour and how much shield/absorb increase relative to base shield/absorb. The relative increase to Shield/Absorb is much higher thanks to their notably lower starting values, especially for Guardians.
Derpů Sorry, noob math mistake. Here is the corrected calculation:

Spoiler


Just so you don't have to read the spoiler tags, here you go: {shadow->0.11398,guardian->0.614459,vanguard->0.174525}

So, the new calculation is basically considering the *full* mitigation profile (not including self-heal), assuming a 75/25 split on m/r+k/e vs f/t+k/e damage. I then take the percentage of mitigation increase from each adrenal, and then look at the ratio of these increases between the two adrenals. Loosely:

(mit[base + exo-adrenal] / mit[base] - 1) / (mit[base + nano-adrenal] / mit[base] - 1) - 1

Where mitigation is defined as the standard:

0.75(1 - (1 - dr)(1 - def)(1 - shld*abs)) + 0.25(1 - (1 - dr)(1 - shld*abs))

Note that this doesn't consider resist chance, so it is *very* slightly inaccurate (the value of the nano-infused stim is deflated by a miniscule amount), but it's pretty close to accurate.

The results show that the Exotech adrenal is 11.4% better than the Nano-Infused for Shadows, a staggering 61.4% better for Guardians, and 17.5% better for Vanguards. So, your initial intuition was correct, grallmate, the Exotech adrenal *is* better, and by a fairly wide margin.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Powerrmongerr's Avatar


Powerrmongerr
04.24.2013 , 03:24 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Derpů Sorry, noob math mistake. Here is the corrected calculation:

Spoiler


Just so you don't have to read the spoiler tags, here you go: {shadow->0.11398,guardian->0.614459,vanguard->0.174525}

So, the new calculation is basically considering the *full* mitigation profile (not including self-heal), assuming a 75/25 split on m/r+k/e vs f/t+k/e damage. I then take the percentage of mitigation increase from each adrenal, and then look at the ratio of these increases between the two adrenals. Loosely:

(mit[base + exo-adrenal] / mit[base] - 1) / (mit[base + nano-adrenal] / mit[base] - 1) - 1

Where mitigation is defined as the standard:

0.75(1 - (1 - dr)(1 - def)(1 - shld*abs)) + 0.25(1 - (1 - dr)(1 - shld*abs))

Note that this doesn't consider resist chance, so it is *very* slightly inaccurate (the value of the nano-infused stim is deflated by a miniscule amount), but it's pretty close to accurate.

The results show that the Exotech adrenal is 11.4% better than the Nano-Infused for Shadows, a staggering 61.4% better for Guardians, and 17.5% better for Vanguards. So, your initial intuition was correct, grallmate, the Exotech adrenal *is* better, and by a fairly wide margin.
This is very disappointing. My instincts were that the absorb/shield adrenal sucked for Juggernaut tanking and it appears my instinct was correct. Wish I had all the mats I wasted back. Back to the rakata/exotech ...

MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
04.25.2013 , 10:47 AM | #20
Similarly, the Rakata Meppack provides about +4800 hp and a 15% increase in HP. 15% of 30,000 hp is another 4500 hp, while the level 450 medpack provides +6800 hp max, and doesn't contribute to effects like shadow TKT and Vanguard shoulder cannon self-heals.