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S+V- 8 HM Progression Ranking


JDotter's Avatar


JDotter
04.22.2013 , 10:16 PM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
I want to pick up on this.

I've done the entire raid in both 8 and 16. Never hit an enrage in either setting. I mean, we're talking about enrages here as if people in 8 are hitting enrages. They're not. Good raid groups just don't hit enrages.

I have a lot of reservations about the claims being made. How do we know the exact enrage timers when no one is hitting them? How do we know the calculations are correct? All I see are the final numbers with no work being shown.

I don't get particularly hung up on the enrages either. Why? If you're a good raid team you are not going to hit enrage in this content regardless if you're 8 or 16. When it comes to hard mode level it is no secret that the enrage timers are easier on 16. This has been the case since the game launched. What makes 16 inherently harder is the increased tank and raid damage, the increased coordination from double the players, and filling out the raid with twice as many competent players.

None of which has been refuted in these discussions.

I want to pick on this

MoX went into 16 when we had 16 55's, the group was far from optimal and I was one of the few dps who had 1 + piece of 69 gear and we never saw an enrage nor felt that we were close at any time and point. One of the European guilds cleared stryak with 15 raiders and said it was easy. You're not doing 8 man with 7 people plain and simple. We hit enrage at 5% and counted the time and was <9 mins > 8 so we have that time. In 16 our video is 11:30 long and we hit no enrage which makes it > 11:30. So I guess all the groups that have kill videos of styrak on 8 are bad considering they all hit enrage.

Oh and on nearly every fight 8/16 I'm the #1 or #2 sorc on torparse so I guess I'll get that #0 spot and attempt to get in a good group despite being 50-80k behind our melee dps.


EDIT: not 1 or 2 anymore in 16 anymore guess people uploaded logs but you get the point

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
04.22.2013 , 10:40 PM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by JDotter View Post
I want to pick on this

MoX went into 16 when we had 16 55's, the group was far from optimal and I was one of the few dps who had 1 + piece of 69 gear and we never saw an enrage nor felt that we were close at any time and point. One of the European guilds cleared stryak with 15 raiders and said it was easy. You're not doing 8 man with 7 people plain and simple. We hit enrage at 5% and counted the time and was <9 mins > 8 so we have that time. In 16 our video is 11:30 long and we hit no enrage which makes it > 11:30. So I guess all the groups that have kill videos of styrak on 8 are bad considering they all hit enrage.
I find it a little bemusing that some time ago I was arguing that a good portion of the difficulty in 16-man is simply coordination and fielding 16 quality raiders; Mavery was, iirc, dismissing this with comments about 16-man SC&FB being much harder mathematically in terms of DPS and healing required.

Now we have a boss with significantly stricter requirements in terms of DPS output compared to 8-man and his comments basically boil down to "well enrage isn't even an issue anyway and 16-man is harder because of coordination and fielding good raiders". Huh. For the record, Mavery, I'm not trying to have a dig at you... it just looks like there's some selective reasoning going on.

For what it's worth, my guild enraged on Styrak the first time we tried him in mostly 63s. Judging from other kill videos I figured the enrage timer to be about 8m from when the dragon spawns. We got some more gear (mostly augments) and slapped some people around the ears and killed him in 7m58s from when I started the timer. DPS was as follows:

2.2k
2.2k
2.2k
2.0k

And 1.6k / 0.6k combined from the tanks and healers respectively. So basically, as far as I can tell you need just shy of 11k combined to beat enrage, which is not insignificant (nor insurmountable, though) early in the new gearing tiers. It's certainly much more demanding than 16man (for once) though, and I think that means something in a fight that is not very mechanically demanding. Certainly there's less to coordinate than NiM FB/SC or NiM Keph.
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin

Krazy_Karl's Avatar


Krazy_Karl
04.22.2013 , 11:47 PM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
I want to pick up on this.

I've done the entire raid in both 8 and 16. Never hit an enrage in either setting. I mean, we're talking about enrages here as if people in 8 are hitting enrages. They're not. Good raid groups just don't hit enrages.

I have a lot of reservations about the claims being made. How do we know the exact enrage timers when no one is hitting them? How do we know the calculations are correct? All I see are the final numbers with no work being shown.

I don't get particularly hung up on the enrages either. Why? If you're a good raid team you are not going to hit enrage in this content regardless if you're 8 or 16. When it comes to hard mode level it is no secret that the enrage timers are easier on 16. This has been the case since the game launched. What makes 16 inherently harder is the increased tank and raid damage, the increased coordination from double the players, and filling out the raid with twice as many competent players.

None of which has been refuted in these discussions.
Lol.

Completely biased selective reasoning. Basically what he is saying is "Math doesn't matter anymore because DPS is irrelevant" for this content.

And the reason you never saw the enrage on Styrak in 8M HM, is because you didn't complete 8M HM within the first week.

Regards,
KK
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. - Yoda

Messiaah's Avatar


Messiaah
04.23.2013 , 07:10 AM | #104
Maybe, i started here something that i did't want to start. To be honest Styrak is the only difference, because all of the other encounters are easy in both modes. Styrak is the only encounter requiring some skill in terms of dps. you don't have to be aware what's going on, because it's always the same order of his abilities, you just have to do enough dps and that is harder on 8man than on 16man. we don't need to calculate that, just go in and find out, you will see the difference.
All i wanted to say is that an encounter which can be killed at the first pull with less than 16man is too easy! I don't want to disrespect the 16man guilds, don't get me wrong here please. The real difficult of an mmo is clearing before others do and that is not effected by a difference between two modes, if there are different rankings which is the case.

However i wanted to point that out because i would like to see more difficult encounters *looking at the devs* which are something more like a simple dps requirement or sometimes not even that.

EDIT: I just want to add that i like the boss encounters and how they are designed, i just like it a bit more difficult than it is now. Maybe some more random elements which require the player's awareness.
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Gurdur's Avatar


Gurdur
04.24.2013 , 08:31 AM | #105
Still no update on progress spreadsheet?

Arendil, SpaceWolves Guildmaster

Iggyemu's Avatar


Iggyemu
04.24.2013 , 05:56 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Gurdur View Post
Still no update on progress spreadsheet?

Arendil, SpaceWolves Guildmaster
Working on it now. Mae has been busy with school.
SuckaFish on The Bastion (Empire)
Tigg: Sorcerer (Corruption)
Officer/Raid Leader

http://suckafish.enjin.com/

Gurdur's Avatar


Gurdur
04.24.2013 , 06:18 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Iggyemu View Post
Working on it now. Mae has been busy with school.
Ok, ty mate!

Arendil, SpaceWolves Guildmaster

Iggyemu's Avatar


Iggyemu
04.24.2013 , 10:27 PM | #108
OK it's been updated. If we missed anything let us know as we were a few pages behind.

One other thing. If you are not providing UTC times in your screenshots you are not going to have a ranked, verified kill. We are not going to try and convert your kill time from the minimap clock in your screenshot.

The majority of the guilds ranked on the spreadsheet have made the effort to provide UTC timestamps on their screenshots. I don't see why everyone else can't.

We want this to be fair. We are going to recognize your kill on the spreadsheet but it won't be ranked and verified unless there is a UTC timestamp on your screenshots. The link to the UTC clock is on the first page.
SuckaFish on The Bastion (Empire)
Tigg: Sorcerer (Corruption)
Officer/Raid Leader

http://suckafish.enjin.com/

Gurdur's Avatar


Gurdur
04.25.2013 , 06:04 AM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Iggyemu View Post
OK it's been updated. If we missed anything let us know as we were a few pages behind.

One other thing. If you are not providing UTC times in your screenshots you are not going to have a ranked, verified kill. We are not going to try and convert your kill time from the minimap clock in your screenshot.

The majority of the guilds ranked on the spreadsheet have made the effort to provide UTC timestamps on their screenshots. I don't see why everyone else can't.

We want this to be fair. We are going to recognize your kill on the spreadsheet but it won't be ranked and verified unless there is a UTC timestamp on your screenshots. The link to the UTC clock is on the first page.
You're right, we've missed the UTC stamp and I apologize for it. Next time we'll be more accurate. Anyway, since there is an achievement screenshot with time and date, knowing we're GMT +2 timezone, it should be quite easy to determine if another guild had a kill before us. Thank you anyway fot he job you're doing.

Arendil, SpaceWolves Guildmaster

Iggyemu's Avatar


Iggyemu
04.25.2013 , 11:54 AM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Gurdur View Post
You're right, we've missed the UTC stamp and I apologize for it. Next time we'll be more accurate. Anyway, since there is an achievement screenshot with time and date, knowing we're GMT +2 timezone, it should be quite easy to determine if another guild had a kill before us. Thank you anyway fot he job you're doing.

Arendil, SpaceWolves Guildmaster
It was more a general statement for everyone.

It's important that we stress that is a test run for the tracking. We only made this known a day before the early access begun, whereas Carnage made their 16 man tracking known weeks in advance. We were honestly waiting the guild that it for EC NiM to do it this time.

So I wouldn't worry too much about not getting the UTC times this go around. Everyone that posted screenshots timed stamped or not are recognized on the spreadsheet as having completed the 8 man version of S&V.

But for TFB NiM I think everyone will have an understanding of what they need to provide in order be ranked.

Also please provide any feedback that will make the tracking better going forward.
SuckaFish on The Bastion (Empire)
Tigg: Sorcerer (Corruption)
Officer/Raid Leader

http://suckafish.enjin.com/