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Huttball Championships - Rebels vs Separatists

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Huttball Championships - Rebels vs Separatists

Mathemagica's Avatar


Mathemagica
04.23.2013 , 07:58 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Luke fighting for real starts at 3:38 his father is toppled by shear power in under a minute Luke is only 20% more then vader and nearly double anakin. By this extent Vader would actually topple anakin in the same manner luke toppled him but instead of taking a minute it would take 30 seconds. By this extent any one anakin beat would be handled in an even faster manner By vader or Luke you have ALL comfirmed my belief EVERY SINGLE ONE of you greatly underestimates Luke's abilities dooku and ventress by extent of EXACT same tactics but power scaled means their is no and should never be a question of how the fight looks Luke topples them in under 10 seconds check the abilities and for once truelly understand the capabilities of the fighters this is the one case of Which A>B>C Logic works and it works at a truely grand lvl to show you just how much dooku or ventress vs Luke have no chance.
First off: Since Luke defeated Darth Vader in his anger, I didn't took into account the skills he shows off in these crucial moments (because I am assuming that he doesn't enter enrage mode during a huttball match).

Second: A>B>C is not a transitive relation when we are talking about combat. (i.e A>B>C doesn't imply that A>C) Darth Nihilus is the perfect counterexample for this and this example shows very well that you have to take into account the specific skills of the characters and even the circumstances under which they engage each other.

More importantly: Dooku doesn't need to defeat Luke. 30 seconds are enough time for Ventress and Grievous to move ahead such that Luke can't catch up before the score. So it doesn't matter whether he can defeat Dooku.

Moreover: Dooku could also engage Kota instead and still Ventress and Grievous are too fast to be stopped by Luke and the alliance forces (the troops can't really do anything and Luke can't stop them if they pass smartly). Again the fight Dooku vs Luke doesn't influence the result. (In fact Luke being near his own scoreline puts him in a bad position for a counterattack)

If you really want to discuss the fight Dooku vs. Luke, well here it comes: The fight between Luke and Vader on the deathstar doesn't really show Lukes skills, because as you said he doesn't want to fight for most of the time and after that, he is driven by anger.
Where do we see Luke fighting with the intention to kill and the skill he has during RotJ? The longest fight would be on the sail barge. Luke does make mistakes during this fight. Dooku can exploit such mistakes.
Also you are underestimating Dooku a little. Yoda once says that Dooku would be the ideal jedi (the book, where this is coming from, is titled "Yoda - ..." or "Count Dooku - ...". I don't remember).
Earlier you mentioned that Yoda wouldn't have sent Luke against the emperor, if he wouldn't have expected Luke to win. I disagree. When I watch the scenes of Yoda and Obi-Wan in Episode 6, I get the impression that they were very uncertain of the outcome of Lukes confrontation with the emperor. Otherwise they wouldn't have warned him so sincerely from the emperor. They simply did everything they could. If it wasn't enough they had lost(well, Leia is still there, but that's a different question).
Concerning the fight between Anakin and Dooku: If you read the novelization of Episode 3, you know that Dooku was supposed to lose (after killing Obi-Wan). After his defeat he would have been "redeemed" (politically) and after Anakins fall he would have been part of the new empire - at least that's what Sidious told him would happen. So it is hard to say whether Anakin really defeated Dooku so easily. And again let me emphasis that TTK in a combat between the characters does not behave multiplicatively to any kind of power level (which is changing anyway as soon as the force leaves a person or decides to be with a person).

Anyway, long story short: The outcome of this duel doesn't decide the match and I still think that the separatists win, because they have one more really fast person and don't have to occupy a monster like Durge.

Mathemagica's Avatar


Mathemagica
04.23.2013 , 08:24 AM | #52
Almost forgot the most important thing: @Warren & Selenial Don't forget that Ventress' anger and hate (and hence her destructive power) will increase rapidly everytime Dooku respawns back from the dead. This must be like a stackable enrage buff.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.23.2013 , 10:08 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Mathemagica View Post
Second: A>B>C is not a transitive relation when we are talking about combat. (i.e A>B>C doesn't imply that A>C) Darth Nihilus is the perfect counterexample for this and this example shows very well that you have to take into account the specific skills of the characters and even the circumstances under which they engage each other.
The problem with this point of view is that it is self contradicting. The reason ABC logic doesn't always work is because every fighter is unique with differing strengths and weaknesses. So we cannot then say, 'for example so and so' because they cannot be compared for that exact reason.

Nonetheless redacting that example, your argument does have weight. But in this situation ABC logic very much works. Because Luke mirrored Vader's fighting style, the same style that he used to defeat Dooku. And even if we take ABC logic out of this, Luke remains an exceptionally skilled duelist, more skilled than Vader. He also specialises in Djem So, which Makashi is inherently weak against.

And tunewalker, you raise some interesting points. I haven't read to ROTJ novel so I'll accept that what you say is true as you possess more facts. Originally I thought Luke's style was unrefined in the sense: untrained. But if he learned his form by mimicking Vader, well then that's a different story.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
04.23.2013 , 01:43 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
The problem with this point of view is that it is self contradicting. The reason ABC logic doesn't always work is because every fighter is unique with differing strengths and weaknesses. So we cannot then say, 'for example so and so' because they cannot be compared for that exact reason.

Nonetheless redacting that example, your argument does have weight. But in this situation ABC logic very much works. Because Luke mirrored Vader's fighting style, the same style that he used to defeat Dooku. And even if we take ABC logic out of this, Luke remains an exceptionally skilled duelist, more skilled than Vader. He also specialises in Djem So, which Makashi is inherently weak against.

And tunewalker, you raise some interesting points. I haven't read to ROTJ novel so I'll accept that what you say is true as you possess more facts. Originally I thought Luke's style was unrefined in the sense: untrained. But if he learned his form by mimicking Vader, well then that's a different story.
Actually the information is not just from the RoTJ novel its also in ESB novel ESB is when he began mimicing his father but he hadnt perfected it yet but when they faced each other again in RotJ it was a different story Luke's skills now perfectly mirrored his father. And by skills i do mean more then his saber combat the start of RotJ is supposed to show case with his easily choking 2 gaurds, vader in the movies never choked more then 1 person at a time, and calling a blaster into his hand from accrossed the room was supposed to mirror ESB when Vader takes the blaster from Han all of these scenes are meant to show the audience that Luke has become Vader's equal in every way. And his defeat of his father and untrying nature when facing him is of course suppose to symbolise that not only did he match his father but he surpassed him in every respect.


OK so I think this may be the last time I have to defend RotJ Luke so going to move into the match at hand I did some research on durge and Rohm and this seems to be an INCREDIBLY even match I truelly have to say Beni good job choosing these teams this match would be one for the history books.

I suspect like every good huttball match the first thing that will happen is a large battle in the middle will break out. R2 being a non combatent would stay out of it. I suspect Luke and Dooku being the team leaders will square off. While Marek will take on Greivous and Rohm will take on ventress leaving Durge free to grab the ball. The rebel special ops group sees durge grab the ball and starts firing on Durge and chucking grenade and doing as much damadge as possible durge shurgs most of this off blasting at the rebels while the sep droids are also firing at the rebs as they are trying to obstruct the objective. Some of durge's armor is destroyed by the reb's and the reb's lose almost all of their forces (only 1 left holding out as best he can.) In this time Luke has defeated Dooku and Marek used the Force to Crush greivous's ribs and used the moment when he was stunned to Zap and finish off the droid. With Marek, Luke and Durge free Durge starts moving towards the end zone just to be lifted up out of the air and thrown back by Marek. Luke, being who he is sets out to save the one remaining troop by taking out the droids.

The first 2 droids are taken out by Luke and then the other 2 start firing upon him the rebel fighter takes advantage of this took come out and take out the 3rd while Luke reflects a bolt back at the 4th the droid dodges this but doing so leaves it open to Luke taking it down with his saber. Ventress in the mean time starts to push back Rohm while Rohm is starting to use his telekentic skills to try to hold ventress at bay. This angers her more and more making her attack more fierce as she charges Rohm nearly overwhelming him. Luke again being who he is goes to rescue his team mate rather then deal with the ball carrier. He cuts down the rage blinded Ventress with out her notice bringing the full team up against durge. Durge's nearly completely destroyed at this point leaves his body open to be more flexible and he overcomes Marek trapping him down. Rohm grabs a grenade from one of the downed troops and flings it at durge the explosion frees marek and allows marek to use the force to restrict Durge's movements Rohm adds in to help marek make Durge unable to Move and Luke calls R2 into the center and uses his telekinetics to lift Durge off the ground and places him into the fire pit which ignites causing durge severe damadge forcing him into a hybernation.
This whole thing i believe would take a total time of about 20-30 seconds (a small skirmish battle is generally fierce and fast.) In this case i would call Durge's near inability to die a weakness as hybenation is worse then death in this game where death resets you just putting him into hybernation stops for longer then killing him.

Luke Marek and Rohm would move together to the end zone with the ball where they will face the full force of the enemy team (minus Durge who is still comatose and being burned) in their end zone. Dooku and ventrss would remain back firing lightning at Luke which would be blocked easily by Rohm and galen. The droids would also be firing at Luke which Luke would easily deflect while greivous would move to get a better position so as to engage with out blocking his team mates. As we saw in episode 2 it take just one hand on a saber to block dooku's (and by extension ventress's) lightning allowing galen and rohm to still use their telekinetics to destroy the droids freeing up Luke to charge the end zone blocking any lightning coming his way and being defended by galen and Rohm the rebels score and are able to take down the seps in their end zone until the next round in which Durge would rez with the team finally being killed by the fire pit. Being exhausted the rebels would face another fresh team of seps and be quickly overwhelmed by shear fire power several droids would be killed and possibly Dooku or ventress again but the rebel team is wiped out beginning with Rohm then Luke and finally Marek (as i believe they would take Rohm out first do to being the weaker one of the group and move on to Luke next as he has proven to be the most dangerous. before turning on marek where I feel Durge's strength and speed just overwhelms him while he is distracted by ventress or dooku or grievous.
The teams would meet in the middle again with another fierce battle and the match goes on like this until the score at the end of the game reads.

Rebels 4
Seperatists 2.

Rebs win.

Obviously by my end score I do actually believe that the seps will take the advantage at some points in the game or have a break away that the rebels will have a problem with but like most people know the middle is the key to a huttball game if you cant push the rebels out of the middle then they are just going to recover the ball even if you do get a break away or are able to power through once (most likely durge).

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
04.23.2013 , 03:44 PM | #55
I said this before in the last thread, but I don't think proposing scenarios is a great way to evaluate this. Strategies, sure. But with 15 minutes and infinite lives, a LOT can happen that we just can't predict and/or know to the detail needed to make a viable scenario out of it. Too many variables, if you will.

To determine a winner we should look at strategies and their effectiveness, not what someone thinks might be the final score.



Quote: Originally Posted by Mathemagica View Post
Almost forgot the most important thing: @Warren & Selenial Don't forget that Ventress' anger and hate (and hence her destructive power) will increase rapidly everytime Dooku respawns back from the dead. This must be like a stackable enrage buff.
Lol! XD
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
04.23.2013 , 04:14 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
I said this before in the last thread, but I don't think proposing scenarios is a great way to evaluate this. Strategies, sure. But with 15 minutes and infinite lives, a LOT can happen that we just can't predict and/or know to the detail needed to make a viable scenario out of it. Too many variables, if you will.

To determine a winner we should look at strategies and their effectiveness, not what someone thinks might be the final score.





Lol! XD
I abosolutely agree with you but i find it difficult as strategies should alter with the what happens. the scenerio i put forth is just one of a hundred scenerios that could play out I just find it more likely based off the strengths and weakness of the combatents on both sides along with some of their known habits and strategies.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
04.23.2013 , 05:08 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Mathemagica View Post
Almost forgot the most important thing: @Warren & Selenial Don't forget that Ventress' anger and hate (and hence her destructive power) will increase rapidly everytime Dooku respawns back from the dead. This must be like a stackable enrage buff.
I lol'd oh so hard at that
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away fromů save one.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Seeliara Sage
Force In Balance - The Harbinger

Mathemagica's Avatar


Mathemagica
04.24.2013 , 01:15 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Lol! XD
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
I lol'd oh so hard at that
Beni said it. "Let the shenanigans begin."

It has been about a decade since I read the novelisation, but some subconscious part of my memory is telling me that tunewalker is right.


Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
But in this situation ABC logic very much works. Because Luke mirrored Vader's fighting style, the same style that he used to defeat Dooku. And even if we take ABC logic out of this, Luke remains an exceptionally skilled duelist, more skilled than Vader. He also specialises in Djem So, which Makashi is inherently weak against.
That convinces me that ABC logic applies here. The reason I wrote the part you quoted is that I'm very sensitive about ABC logic being used without a good explanation.

Concerning the scenario (or strategy in some form) tunewalker described above: As I wrote earlier, the separatists are probably better of by letting Durge deal with Galen Marek (I consider him the most dangerous one of the rebel team, because he's the fastest one and speed is a very important factor in Huttball).

I feel like the important points have been made. How long until the timer reaches zero, Beni?

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
04.24.2013 , 01:22 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by Mathemagica View Post
Beni said it. "Let the shenanigans begin."

It has been about a decade since I read the novelisation, but some subconscious part of my memory is telling me that tunewalker is right.




That convinces me that ABC logic applies here. The reason I wrote the part you quoted is that I'm very sensitive about ABC logic being used without a good explanation.

Concerning the scenario (or strategy in some form) tunewalker described above: As I wrote earlier, the separatists are probably better of by letting Durge deal with Galen Marek (I consider him the most dangerous one of the rebel team, because he's the fastest one and speed is a very important factor in Huttball).

I feel like the important points have been made. How long until the timer reaches zero, Beni?
I can see that the only thing is Durge's Lack of force sensitivty going up against Marek's beast of telekentics I dont think Durge will be able to do much since he shouldn't truely be able to get close but at the same time i don't see Marek really killing durge either i guess its just both of them keeping each other occupied or until galen does enough damadge to durge to put him into hybernation. As far as speed goes i would warrent to say Luke would be just as fast as Galen he has plenty of impressive accrobatic feats from his fights along with his training on dagobah

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.24.2013 , 10:19 AM | #60
I think this battle comes down to power vs agility... the Rebels having power and the Separitists having agility. But then we have to consider whether the Seps have enough power to negate that, or whether the Rebels have enough agility.

Thoughts?