Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

S+V- 8 HM Progression Ranking


Ansalem's Avatar


Ansalem
04.22.2013 , 01:05 PM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by Nibbon View Post
Drussy, there is only one more mode: nightmare - the confusion comes from the split between 8 and 16 (so 2 more modes would be 8 NiM and 16 NiM).

To everyone: You are only comparing Styrak - and you are only really comparing one or two mechanics. There are 8 images to split up and kill instead of 4 in 16 man. Even if the enrage timer is longer in 16 - I'm not so sure 8 or 16 guilds are hitting enrage on many fights so it seems rather irrelevant. I'm willing to admit that the Styrak fight is probably a little easier in 16 vs 8, but it isn't all that significant a difference - you cant just say, oh well the enrage timer is X amount longer therefore the fight is that much harder.

Also, I'm glad that S+V HM is easier this time around - everyone needs to do a lot of farming to get back to BiS - and without crafting it will take more time than normal. Not to mention, I find the operation to be a lot of fun and really well polished, which is considerably more valuable than difficulty for a hard mode (I'll repeat the sentiment, that for a really good guild, Nightmare should be the only challenge). Besides that, Nightmare is a lot closer than you think.

Also, to say EC NiM tanks are easier in 16m after the nerfs, "got hit with the nerfbat," is ridiculously wrong. EC NiM tanks are still way harder in 16 than in 8, or at least they were before 2.0 - I'm not going to continue arguing about Styrak or S+V, but I'd argue you on this.

Anyway, I've said my piece, I won't respond here again.
I accounted for the images and other factors in my breakdown in my post above. The math appears the same for other bosses that I have compared. It seems you only need to do 1500-1700 dps max in 16m HM for all bosses. In 8m HM it varies between 1800-2450. Math don't lie...16m is much easier.

JDotter's Avatar


JDotter
04.22.2013 , 04:54 PM | #92
Nippon its much easier on 16 this time around. Only fight that might be more challenging is olok and the only factor there is the amount of traders that come down that need to be CC'd.

There is little to no dps check in 16 and its quite sad. This reigns true for the llama boss on 16/8 HM, the dps check on 16 is non existent while in 8 you need actuall dps.

I'd say guilds that can't clear S&V HM or are real close but hit enrage would walk over 16 man if given 8 more equally skilled players or cloned their current players

Has nothing to do with mechanics, its more the fact you don't need nearly as much dps in 16.

Mavery's Avatar


Mavery
04.22.2013 , 05:49 PM | #93
Quote: Originally Posted by JDotter View Post
Nippon its much easier on 16 this time around. Only fight that might be more challenging is olok and the only factor there is the amount of traders that come down that need to be CC'd.

There is little to no dps check in 16 and its quite sad. This reigns true for the llama boss on 16/8 HM, the dps check on 16 is non existent while in 8 you need actuall dps.

I'd say guilds that can't clear S&V HM or are real close but hit enrage would walk over 16 man if given 8 more equally skilled players or cloned their current players

Has nothing to do with mechanics, its more the fact you don't need nearly as much dps in 16.
I want to pick up on this.

I've done the entire raid in both 8 and 16. Never hit an enrage in either setting. I mean, we're talking about enrages here as if people in 8 are hitting enrages. They're not. Good raid groups just don't hit enrages.

I have a lot of reservations about the claims being made. How do we know the exact enrage timers when no one is hitting them? How do we know the calculations are correct? All I see are the final numbers with no work being shown.

I don't get particularly hung up on the enrages either. Why? If you're a good raid team you are not going to hit enrage in this content regardless if you're 8 or 16. When it comes to hard mode level it is no secret that the enrage timers are easier on 16. This has been the case since the game launched. What makes 16 inherently harder is the increased tank and raid damage, the increased coordination from double the players, and filling out the raid with twice as many competent players.

None of which has been refuted in these discussions.
Former GM and RL of a once great guild. Now just wandering the galaxy looking for a good home.

Krewel's Avatar


Krewel
04.22.2013 , 06:25 PM | #94
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
I want to pick up on this.

I've done the entire raid in both 8 and 16. Never hit an enrage in either setting. I mean, we're talking about enrages here as if people in 8 are hitting enrages. They're not. Good raid groups just don't hit enrages.

I have a lot of reservations about the claims being made. How do we know the exact enrage timers when no one is hitting them? How do we know the calculations are correct? All I see are the final numbers with no work being shown.

I don't get particularly hung up on the enrages either. Why? If you're a good raid team you are not going to hit enrage in this content regardless if you're 8 or 16. When it comes to hard mode level it is no secret that the enrage timers are easier on 16. This has been the case since the game launched. What makes 16 inherently harder is the increased tank and raid damage, the increased coordination from double the players, and filling out the raid with twice as many competent players.

None of which has been refuted in these discussions.
As has been said repeatedly, calculations were made, you might want to read up on that. Enrage timer for 8m in 8 min, and around 11min for 16m. And a lot of 8m Ops groups were hitting enrage timer on Styrak the first week, no idea where you got the info that noone was hitting the enrage timer ... if noone was hitting enrage timer, then why are we even talking about it so often, huh? Logic! It was the only boss that was sort of wake-up call for damage dealers.
The prodigal son has returned ... some people are stuck with SWTOR, for better or worse.

Kognition - 55 Scoundrel

Gurdur's Avatar


Gurdur
04.22.2013 , 06:34 PM | #95
SpaceWolves S&V 8MAN HM: CLEARED

GUILD: SPACEWOLVES
SERVER: TOMB OF FREEDON NADD (EU)
TIMEZONE: GMT + 2 (summer time)


DASH'ROODE: 04/17/2013 - 11:57 pm
kill pic: http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2...3041723575.jpg
achievement: http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7...3042302193.jpg
TITAN 6: 04/18/2013 - 01:03 AM
kill pic: http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/7...3041801033.jpg
achievement: http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7226/...3042302194.jpg
THRASHER: 04/21/2013 - 11:49 PM
kill pic: http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2...3042123495.jpg
achievement: http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1...3042302080.jpg
OPERATIONS CHIEF: 04/22/2013 - 12:22 AM
kill pic:http://imageshack.us/f/15/screenshot2013042200221.jpg/
achievement:http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/9...3042302075.jpg
OLOK THE SHADOW: 04/22/2013 - 12:48 AM
kill pic: http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/3...3042200483.jpg
achievement: http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9...3042302200.jpg
CARTEL WARLORDS: 04/22/2013 - 10:32 PM
kill pic: http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/9...3042222325.jpg
achievement: http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/7...3042302194.jpg
DREAD MASTER STYRAK: 04/22/2013 - 11:51 PM
kill pic: http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8...3042223510.jpg
achievement: http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/937...3042302075.jpg


Arendil, SpaceWolves Guildmaster

Mavery's Avatar


Mavery
04.22.2013 , 06:35 PM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by Krewel View Post
As has been said repeatedly, calculations were made, you might want to read up on that. Enrage timer for 8m in 8 min, and around 11min for 16m. And a lot of 8m Ops groups were hitting enrage timer on Styrak the first week, no idea where you got the info that noone was hitting the enrage timer ... if noone was hitting enrage timer, then why are we even talking about it so often, huh? Logic! It was the only boss that was sort of wake-up call for damage dealers.
Someone writing "the timer is 8 minutes" and the "timer is 11 minutes" is not proof that's the enrage timer.

And sorry, but most groups are not hitting the enrage.
Former GM and RL of a once great guild. Now just wandering the galaxy looking for a good home.

Krewel's Avatar


Krewel
04.22.2013 , 06:55 PM | #97
Then time it for yourself and you'll have empirical proof? Most groups who were progressing only hit the roadblock with the enrage timer on the last boss for a day or two, otherwise it was smooth sailing for all bosses. Check out the rest of the thread, maybe. If you only went with 16m in the first week, then of course it was so smooth the enrage on Styrak was impossible to hit, but 8m guilds that went with 61-63 gear (and some Arkanian pieces) quickly felt the tight dps check.
The prodigal son has returned ... some people are stuck with SWTOR, for better or worse.

Kognition - 55 Scoundrel

Mavery's Avatar


Mavery
04.22.2013 , 07:50 PM | #98
Quote: Originally Posted by Krewel View Post
Then time it for yourself and you'll have empirical proof? Most groups who were progressing only hit the roadblock with the enrage timer on the last boss for a day or two, otherwise it was smooth sailing for all bosses. Check out the rest of the thread, maybe. If you only went with 16m in the first week, then of course it was so smooth the enrage on Styrak was impossible to hit, but 8m guilds that went with 61-63 gear (and some Arkanian pieces) quickly felt the tight dps check.
Three words: burden of proof.

Of course you're going to hit an enrage with 61-63 gear. You will hit the enrage in 61-63 gear in 8 and 16. But if you're in a mix of 63, 66, 69, and 72s -- which everyone outside of the OMG WE HAVE TO DO IT FIRST is doing -- then you won't hit an enrage at all. So, again, that doesn't make it easier or harder. Any competent raid team who is adequately geared for the content will not hit enrages.
Former GM and RL of a once great guild. Now just wandering the galaxy looking for a good home.

Ansalem's Avatar


Ansalem
04.22.2013 , 08:18 PM | #99
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
Three words: burden of proof.

Of course you're going to hit an enrage with 61-63 gear. You will hit the enrage in 61-63 gear in 8 and 16. But if you're in a mix of 63, 66, 69, and 72s -- which everyone outside of the OMG WE HAVE TO DO IT FIRST is doing -- then you won't hit an enrage at all. So, again, that doesn't make it easier or harder. Any competent raid team who is adequately geared for the content will not hit enrages.
Don't forget other factors such as dc's, deaths, random bugs. First week we did it we hit the enrage with a few % left while in our DG in 8m. Deaths mistakes or dc's have resulted during these fights and this is how we know the time on enrage. If you would like to see proof you can watch the DnT SWTOR stream @ www.twitch.tv/fridge_sa. I believe we archived our first kill and you can see us hit the enrage at 8m in. As for 16m I believe someone did that on the PTS but I do not have the video. We do know however that in 16m guilds are going up to 11 min without seeing the enrage so its at least 11 mins.

Krewel's Avatar


Krewel
04.22.2013 , 08:44 PM | #100
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
Three words: burden of proof.

Of course you're going to hit an enrage with 61-63 gear. You will hit the enrage in 61-63 gear in 8 and 16. But if you're in a mix of 63, 66, 69, and 72s -- which everyone outside of the OMG WE HAVE TO DO IT FIRST is doing -- then you won't hit an enrage at all. So, again, that doesn't make it easier or harder. Any competent raid team who is adequately geared for the content will not hit enrages.
In 16m you still require only two tanks, only one gets pulled into the nightmare ... so yeah, significantly easier. When a healer gets into the nightmare on 8m right before the dragon-jumping phase, it is much touger to compensate than on 16m, same goes for any dps that gets pulled right before the burn phase. You're preaching to the choir about this being easy content, I'm just saying Styrak was the only boss that wasn't a complete pushover when 8m Ops groups tried to kill him as fast as possible (it was the only fight where we actually had to use the new adrenals in the first week). The difference between 8min and 11min enrage timer is significant in and of itself. You will find many people reporting in this section of the forum about hitting enrage on 8m, but I haven't seen anyone reporting that on 16m.
The prodigal son has returned ... some people are stuck with SWTOR, for better or worse.

Kognition - 55 Scoundrel