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Developer Update: Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular Class Changes

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Developer Update: Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular Class Changes
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

SusAntigoon's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 12:40 PM | #11
Hello there,

I play a madness assassin from the beginning. I tried some other builds, but madness is something i felt good with. I play a full madness build and doing pvp most of the time.

Before 2.0 we weren't overpowered at all. I thought we would get some buff instead of nerfs! Why? Endless posts have been made about madness being screwed...

Well, it is!!!

So to repeat it again. You made our rotation boring as hell!!! Before 2.0 i could shock one to get a bonus or use maul... One of the few things we could do to get a little bit of that tiny amount of extra damage.

So when i read this in your article, you make me bit angry:

"Now in 2.0, Madness Assassins can get the same results with a smoother, less complex list of abilities and ability priorities." SIGH! It wasn't that hard at all....
"We’re confident that the changes we’ve made will actually make Madness Assassins a more attractive option to players that were previously turned off by their complexity." OMG, are you for real? So what is your goal? Make all true madness assassins angry and try to make them turn away of the spec and then try to get a small bunch of new players filling up this gap? Or? hmmm

"Madness Assassins no longer rely on Shock for sustained damage, but it’s still a perfectly viable ability for bursting a target down." LOL, did you guyz ever played a madness build? + This is a contradiction what you said before about making it less complex. So, should i use it or not?

"With the removal of Shock from a sustained damage priority list, Madness Assassins have a lot more Force available. With this in mind, Calculating Mind has been replaced with Lingering Nightmares, which increases the duration of Crushing Darkness." Again, you replace an instant small buff, to an ability with a long activation cost. You are so wrong, don't mix things up... Try to play a madness spec please...

"Duplicity: ...This isn’t so much a balance concern as it is a usability and complexity concern. In this specific case, adding Duplicity on top of a full Madness spec felt clunky. Worse, it wasn’t necessary. We’re fully capable of providing the same damage boost to players without requiring them to master additional gameplay. This change aims to do exactly that." Please explain, so you realy believe that taking a melee buff away AGAIN, we can replace it with what? And it's realy simple, get behind a man and hit a button. So complex...

Well, to be honest. I've paid for this game from the beginning. Even when my ex-server went empty, i still payed for this game. For others before the trolling, yes i have other toons, but this one i realy liked!

I hope "developer" that you give us an answer


VigDiath's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 12:41 PM | #12
Balance is daunting????? The ******** is strong with this one!!

It's daunting for anyone who doesn't like to press 2 or 3 buttons to kill someone like PTs or Snipers. Balance was always such a flowing and graceful spec to play. To me, Balance was the ULTIMATE Shadow spec because of those reasons and was always rewarding to play.

Just admit it. People complained about Balance Shadows enough doing so much damage and you listened. But instead of just moving a skill out of reach, you gimped the whole spec! And to add to that, Maras still smash for 8k or more. Snipers still press a few key abilities to drain someones health. Our 'damage' is laughable now. That's not just on a training dummy, that's in actual Ops now. That's in PvP. That's against trash mobs I was facing on Makeb. The spec is ruined and almost not worth playing. I spent the past few days leveling in Tank spec and using my DPS comps to kill stuff.

You guys really need to fix this.
Jedi Covenant (The Baltimore Legacy)
Laaron - 55 (Shadow Tank) Eulora - 55 (Sage Healer)
Madmartygan - 55 (Guardian DPS) Skylaadawn - 55 (Sab Smug)
Akon - 55 (Carnage Marauder) L'aron - 53 (Sorc Healer)

Civilie's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 12:51 PM | #13

I fundamentally disagree with most of what you stated about the Balance specification. As it currently stands, the spec is completely broken for PVE. It has become completely boring. More importantly, the total single-target damage output (the ONLY thing that matters in PVE) is severely less than other classes.

Yes, I am extremely disappointed that our "rotation" has been simplified. How was our rotation any more difficult than a Watchman Sentinel or Dirty Fighting-hybrid Gunslinger (both of which I play)? Balance was more difficult than Infiltration, but the reward for mastering the rotation was greater (better single-target boss damage). Interestingly enough, Infiltration in 2.0 is arguably more complex than Balance ever was! In my opinion, the argument that Balance was too difficult came from a minority of less-skilled players. For those players, Infiltration was a better choice, and that was OK.

To be honest, your comments under "Infiltration Tactics" just anger me. It really saddens me to hear your regret in regards to originally placing Infiltration Tactics low on the Infiltration tree. It seems your "mistake" is what made Balance great. As we at first speculated, and now are completely clear on, your department does not play this spec often enough.

What you don't understand is that Shadow Strike made the rotation SMOOTHER, gave us a necessary slowdown in Force use, provided a useful but limited amount of burst, and created a "balanced" class between melee and force-power use, as we are titled. The Shadow Strike proc and the Mind Crush proc were the only things we had to do once our Force in Balance, Force Breach, and Sever Force abilities were applied. Now we just have Double Strike. And lots and lots of Saber Strikes. I just can't fathom how this was too difficult or "clunky" in your opinion. I play plenty of other classes, and the Balance Shadow seemed in-line with plenty of other rotations. Shadow Strike is our CORE advanced class ability... we should be able to use it!

There are other bad changes. We have absolutely zero use for Whirling Blow, I don't care how much you buff it. In addition, there is no need for Force in Balance to hit 5 targets in PVE. It is 100% impractical to apply our three DoT abilities to FIVE targets, especially since you inexplicably removed Sharpened Mind. In effect, the increased cost to FiB was a nerf to the ability. Also, the removal of Sharpened Mind means our current Force management is a nightmare. We're doing more Saber Striking than any other ability.

Please, please listen to your player base, especially the ones like me who grew to love Balance over the past year and a quarter. Take a look at the forums. Watch the videos people are posting. I have never seen such a unanimous voice in this game, on any other change. We want Infiltration Tactics back, as well as Sharpened Mind. Take back the lazy, passive stuff like Rippling Force, and buffs to Force Technique. There is PLENTY of room for growth on your side. For example, 1.) Twin Disciplines could be fixed. 2.) Telekinetic Throw could even be introduced to hit harder when DoT effects are applied. 3.) There are TWO nodes in the tree that buff our self-healing (unnecessary).

-Saddened, devoted player.

_Kayko_'s Avatar

04.19.2013 , 12:51 PM | #14
Telekinetics/Lightning -
The bad:
-Bubble stun on team members - The upkeep needed to make it work pre 2.0 was very high, the removal of it turns out to be not so bad since it is now something you don't even have to worry about at all... meh, no one gets your bubbles if a seer is in the group because of the heal it gives. However, PvE side of it. No bubble stun with your companion is rough. Perhaps I just got so used to it leveling a 3rd sage/inqu, but it was a very nice survival tool to have.
-Bubble stun on yourself - The range of this SUCKS! Most melee are not effected by the stun and is very often resisted by players/mobs that are of the same level, don't even think about working on it with some mob/player that is a level above you. On top of the terrible range that the stun has, the duration is far too short and may appear to be a little buggy with ability queuing. It appears that if a player/mob is queues up the next attack (but before the attack actually goes off) the attack still hits even though the stun has gone off. Sure, latency can have some effect in this but typically running at ~45ms, It rarely seems like 3 seconds have passed from one attack to the next.
-Force Usage- Does seem a little bit of a non issue most of the time. It slightly gives me the feeling of pre 1.2 healing. In turn for having to actually manage force usage, a lower damage free cast (perhaps one that regens force) would be a nice addition. Something at least for when you do get in trouble with force usage that you are not just doing the oh so fun idle combat.

The Good:
-Damage- Finally the class has a decent ability to do some burst. The increase in damage overall was a nice.
-Rotations/Priorities- The whole spec now seems to feel smooth and responsive when played correctly, It no longer feels like a game of status bar / proc watching. Though it is still very heavy on different procs, I think that the changes to alacrity have made it so that everything seems to flow proc or not into the next ability.

Balance/Madness -
The Bad:
Instant lift - where to start... This was the bread and/or butter to the spec. The spec was never really about damage in my opinion. It was all about control. I understand removing it from the hybrid Shadow, but it was the killer for me in PvP. With so many classes getting movement enhancing abilities, the cast time is still often too long for it to be of use. The damage is simply not there to support removing this and Barrier is not even worth it as a consolation prize. I don't see where it is "a lot of extra lockdown" as it was put. If the resolve mechanic was not in the game, yes, I understand that the ability would be perhaps overly strong, but as it is, 1 minute CD that provides a lot of resolve and is broke on damage. Also, the same enhancement can be found in the middle tree. This almost defined the spec as "oh crap" tree. The spec that almost save a bad situation with quick reaction. Now, meh, you can get the same advantage with all the damage in the middle tree, why bother with the spec at all?

Other then the bad that I see, the spec hasn't been improved in much of any ways. It still has the tab / attack / tab / attack / tab / attack feel to it. In PvP, it is often just DoT up everything in range, then do it again. It takes a Balance Sage three or four seconds to get damage rolling out, but can be nulled by a single ability of cleanse. Why does it take so long and 3 casts to start getting damage out that can be erased by a single one? or even worse, erased while that person is getting healed.

I'm sure the is more, but since 2.0, I was only able to do a couple warzones before I felt that I was too much of a liability to my team based on spec choice alone to continue playing as it. The middle tree appears to be the only viable spec in PvP and that is a shame, I enjoy having a choice, be it a damage spec, a control spec, hybrid, or healing. Balance now only offers a ranged 2 second snare that like collapse, has virtually no effect on ranged classes though has even a less of an effect on melee classes.
[Jedi Covenant] ~Katsune Legacy
Kayko - 55 Kinetic Sage
Sonika - 51 Lightning Inquisitor
Kaito - 55 Balance Sage

Meglivorn's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 01:15 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by sainik View Post
For me, the issue isn't much about having the same damage boost, as much as being able to use our core AC ability. I have always felt that balance shadow was named so because if its synergy between melee and force abilities. Without having a variety in the available melee skills, that is no longer the case, and that destroys the feel of the class.

I consider Shadow strike, stealth, resilience and project to be the abilities that define a shadow (and indeed both infiltration and kinetic combat get their own ways to use shadow strike and project ), but none of these core abilities synergize with the balance tree. Worse, balance shadows cannot even use one of these ablities. Earlier balance shadows had access to infiltration tactics and twin disciplines, this was not the case. Now, the balance tree somehow feels alien to the shadow class, and "feels" similar to a balance sage.

Most players have a choice between shadow and sage when they hit lvl 10, and they pick a shadow because they want stealth and/or they want to be melee. Hence i do not understand why balance spec will be more attractive to shadows, when it synergises with neither stealth nor melee abilities.
Completly agree with this. I played balance since beta, now it's unplayabe for me, changed to infiltrator and have to learn.
Also disappointed with the new ability but that is said many times by many people.
"Many weapons can kill, but only the lightsaber can inspire such extremes of hope or fear."

Monterone's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 01:38 PM | #16
APeck, you realize Haunted Dreams is a completely unwanted talent now, don't you? Would you please re-design it into something we may actually want to pick up?

As a madness sin, I never used it in the brief time I tested madness. As a madness sorc, the only time to use Whirlwind now is with Polarity Shift up. Tell us once again why 2 points are worth spending to make something a 1.5s cast? And completely fill someones resolve bar with such a long cast?

The only good thing about the extra 2s stun at the end of this WW was that it was instant. Now that it's a long cast AND it fills more resolve, there is absolutely no reason to pick up this talent. In fact, you're hurting yourself by taking it.

Lengthening the duration of Crushing Darkness was NEVER a good idea, so why give it to assassins, I never even take it as a madness sorc. The goal for competitive play is to burst opponents down as quickly as possible. Extra time on Crushing Darkness, without increasing its damage only dilutes the burst even further and is counter productive. Another two points not to take.

Class comparison -- how come a heavy armor pyro gets 30% periodic damage reduction, but a light armor madness inq only gets 15%? Another two points not to pick up unless you really must.

How come you don't think sorcerers could use a sub 30% health execution talent, akin to Bloodletting? Op is a healer too and I see no issue with them having it in the dps tree?

Oh and Lightning Burns returning 2 force for a sorcerer? What a joke! You increased the force cost of Lightning Strike by what? 33%? And then gave us 2 force off through Burns. Brilliant! Force is still an issue with using Wrath on Lightning Strike. Wrath should also halve the cost of LS if you want us to use it.

Still not gonna play madness, nice try on balance but in my opinion it is far, far from being enjoyable and competitive in high end PvP.
Zombie . Silk . Sinestro
Satele Shan

LovarBoy's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 01:48 PM | #17
It's funny how Sorcs / Sages are yelling for love... both classes got the most "love" with 2.0 and both classes are now horrible in PvP as an enemy.

Sorry, but if you can't kill people in PvP, you're doing it wrong. You got so many annoying ways to CC your opponent, it's ridiculous that BioWare is that dumb and blind to allow something like this right now.

Stop crying, other classes like the PT are in a much worse position - they are completely useless by now.

Sobur's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 01:52 PM | #18
Wow that jedi armor is horrible. What's up with that S&M headgear? lol

Highcommander's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 01:52 PM | #19
I love this thread but I can't help but wonder... what if you play a Republic class. You would REALLY be scratching your head trying to figure out everything he is talking about. Would it not be better to have 2 versions of this (one for republic and one for sith) or at the very least list both names of the ability/attacks?

EDIT --- Just saw the 2nd link for Sage... TY SO MUCH!
The Ebon Hawk (Light - RP-PvE) UnderWorld Alliance - UA
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Happy_Puppy's Avatar

04.19.2013 , 02:02 PM | #20
I really like the change to lighting other then the bubble stun breaks on direct damage. If it only effects the bubble on me then it should be a real stun. Why the double nerf?

The worthless: Force Barrier... Why oh why did you make this channeled? In effect you have made this totally worthless in pvp and very ineffective in pve. Unless you added a heal effect to it while channeled or alow the sorc to move its pretty much a waste, In pvp it just means we die a few sec later why the enemy heal them self's or wait for more to show up to kill me.

This skill needs a major rework or just removed and have a more effective skill in its place.