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PVE bolster!


Seireeni's Avatar


Seireeni
04.18.2013 , 02:19 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
The only difference is that in PvP, the higher-level content is mixed in with the lower-level content. So if you need better gear to do the higher-level content, then you can never do *any* content. (hence, PvP's current well-deserved reputation of being very newcomer unfriendly)
I also used to see people in pretty good gear doing sm KP and EV for the comms. And there's always ranked wzs for "higher level content".

Soxbadger's Avatar


Soxbadger
04.18.2013 , 02:21 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
The only difference is that in PvP, the higher-level content is mixed in with the lower-level content. So if you need better gear to do the higher-level content, then you can never do *any* content. (hence, PvP's current well-deserved reputation of being very newcomer unfriendly)
This simply isnt true. An exceptional player with free blue pvp gear was still better than a bad player in fully optimized ewh.

Lets not even discuss a game like Huttball where strategy/skill leads to 6-0 games because one side just wants to death match. No matter what stats you have, you wont win hutball unless you actually understand the game. Similar situation at hypergate where people death match at mid, not understanding the rules.

Id say pvp is more newcomer friendly than pve. If you just que up randomly for a pug OPS as a fresh 50 not knowing the boss fights, how well do you think you would do?

At least in pvp you get a reward pretty much no matter how bad you were. No matter how many times you were killed, 1 shotted, etc, you get some sort of tangible reward towards getting the better gear.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.18.2013 , 02:30 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
This simply isnt true. An exceptional player with free blue pvp gear was still better than a bad player in fully optimized ewh.
I've done ranked warzones on various characters. I get at least 50% of my XP while leveling through PvP, and I used to queue at 50 with some very serious PvPers. I'm pretty confident in my skill and my knowledge of the PvP metagame. If I queue into a warzone in Recruit gear, I will be MAULED by a player in optimized EWH, even when that same player is getting face planted with ease by some of my max geared guildies. The gear disparity is absolutely a problem, both mathematically (the numbers are very clear here) and practically.

In any case, clearly gear is a significant issue, otherwise you wouldn't be complaining about bolster. All that bolster does (if it weren't buggy as sin) is level the playing field w.r.t. gear. Either you agree that the playing field should be level w.r.t. gear (which is what you're contending) and bolster is fine, or you really want there to be a significant gear disparity (which you deny ever existed). This seems like a fairly obvious contradiction.

Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
Lets not even discuss a game like Huttball where strategy/skill leads to 6-0 games because one side just wants to death match. No matter what stats you have, you wont win hutball unless you actually understand the game. Similar situation at hypergate where people death match at mid, not understanding the rules.
Oh, I absolutely used to love Huttball as an under-geared player queuing with coordinated guildmates, since it was really the only warzone where I felt like I made a real contribution. I couldn't do everything (e.g. the ball carrier role was completely out of the question, even as a kinetic shadow), but I could at least fill a slot and not feel like I was dragging down the team. I had to play pretty carefully though, because almost anyone on the field was able to mow me down without a second thought.

Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
Id say pvp is more newcomer friendly than pve. If you just que up randomly for a pug OPS as a fresh 50 not knowing the boss fights, how well do you think you would do?
Depends on your community. On my server, I used to do exactly this with a great deal of success. The more important point is that PvE doesn't stack the cards against you as a newcomer. There is a smooth, balanced path from "newbie" to "elite pro". In PvP, if I queue into a warzone, I might be facing people at my own gear level, or people who are radically beyond me. That's not a smooth path.

Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
At least in pvp you get a reward pretty much no matter how bad you were. No matter how many times you were killed, 1 shotted, etc, you get some sort of tangible reward towards getting the better gear.
Exactly the problem. Why is PvP gear even considered a tangible reward if you can earn it simply by /sitting at the off-node?
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Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Crawelc's Avatar


Crawelc
04.18.2013 , 02:33 PM | #34
/Signed. Gimme gimme I want I want. Thats how you get bioware to do something right?
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Scotland's Avatar


Scotland
04.18.2013 , 02:35 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Exactly the problem. Why is PvP gear even considered a tangible reward if you can earn it simply by /sitting at the off-node?
If you're sitting at the off node all game and never have to do anything, it really doesn't say much about your servers PVP, imo.
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Seireeni's Avatar


Seireeni
04.18.2013 , 02:40 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Exactly the problem. Why is PvP gear even considered a tangible reward if you can earn it simply by /sitting at the off-node?
You can also get the pve gear by letting other people with better gear drag you through content.

Imo it's just not fair that pve-people basically get 2 sets of gear for free. I'd prefer getting slaughtered for few weeks before getting good gear.

Soxbadger's Avatar


Soxbadger
04.18.2013 , 02:41 PM | #37
Maybe you arent reading my posts. I am in a progression pve guild. I have top end pve gear. Bolster is making my gear better than someone in pvp gear. That is stupid. As someone who is getting an advantage, I am big enough to say, its unfair that I have an advantage in pvp that I did not earn in pvp. PvP gear (in pvp) should be > PvE gear. It is really simple.

The reason why it is a significant issue is because I dont want PVP players to quit. I have a lot of friends who exclusively pvp (I play on a pvp server), they dont really see the point in playing when I show up bolstered with better stats.

A lot of your complaints should be directed to the way BW set up wzs. They are completely unfair and the least of that reason is "gear". The biggest reason is pre-made v pugs. When we hare 8 people in mumble, we are likely going to coordinate better than 8 randoms from the street. Even if some of those randoms have great gear, we can coordinate and take care of them.

As for your last question, the same reason why someone in a pve raid may get gear even though the rest of the group did all the work.

I have yet to see 1 legitimate argument for why my pve gear should be better than pvp gear. Even if it was only 1% better than pve gear, at least you could argue that "better is better". But when the gear is worse, what can you argue?

Would you be okay if pvp gear was better than pve gear in pve?

Ill quietly wait for an answer.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.18.2013 , 02:50 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
Maybe you arent reading my posts. I am in a progression pve guild. I have top end pve gear. Bolster is making my gear better than someone in pvp gear. That is stupid. As someone who is getting an advantage, I am big enough to say, its unfair that I have an advantage in pvp that I did not earn in pvp. PvP gear > PvE gear. It is really simple.
They've said that this is a bug, which sounds about right to me. If Underworld gear were designed to be better than Conqueror, I would be leading the charge to burn down the game studio. This is due to be fixed though, along with the mod bolstering trick.

Ideally, I would like to see top-tier PvE gear provide an appreciable advantage in PvP over entry-level 55 gear (e.g. level 66 mods), but still worse than Partisan gear by a small margin. I don't want there to be a *dramatic* gear gap between Conqueror and entry level 55 gear, but there should certainly be an advantage.

Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
A lot of your complaints should be directed to the way BW set up wzs. They are completely unfair and the least of that reason is "gear". The biggest reason is pre-made v pugs. When we hare 8 people in mumble, we are likely going to coordinate better than 8 randoms from the street. Even if some of those randoms have great gear, we can coordinate and take care of them.
I agree with this. I think a lot of the gear problems could have been resolved by a) having higher server pops (thus a larger queuing pool), and b) forcing some level of gear parity in the matchmaking system. Biasing the system to only match premades with premades would also be super-nice (though they claimed quite a while ago that this is already in place).

Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
As for your last question, the same reason why someone in a pve raid may get gear even though the rest of the group did all the work.
Sure, but that's more analogous to someone queuing with a really good premade. I can *solo* queue into PvP, lose every match, get zero damage, protection or healing and still get a full set of Conqueror. While I think a good ops group could pull someone through to full Arkanian at this point, it's not really possible (with current gear levels) to twink someone to a full Underworld set.

Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
I have yet to see 1 legitimate argument for why my pve gear should be better than pvp gear. Even if it was only 1% better than pve gear, at least you could argue that "better is better". But when the gear is worse, what can you argue?
It *shouldn't* be better in warzones. I also think it shouldn't be better in open world PvP, but that's a technically harder problem to solve. I do think that PvE gear needs to be better for PvE content, which is essentially *everything* except for warzones and open world encounters. If PvP gear were better (or even at parity), then the easiest path to PvE gear would be sitting in warzones and doing nothing, which is what people did prior to 1.2.

Quote: Originally Posted by Soxbadger View Post
Would you be okay if pvp gear was better than pve gear?
No, but as mentioned, that's a bug.

I also want to reemphasize that I really don't like the fact that bolster is in play in ranked warzones. Gear should be a significant element of ranked warzones, because you're going up against the best of the best who have already ground and min-maxed their gear. The fact that I can queue into a ranked warzone with a group of PvE geared players is *fun* (and something that I will be doing), but I don't really like it from a game design perspective.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Soxbadger's Avatar


Soxbadger
04.18.2013 , 03:10 PM | #39
At least for me the entire point is to raise awareness about a very significant bug. I know BW is saying they will fix it.

But imagine if for a week or 2 after a release, you were watching pvp players just decimate pve, and bw was saying "Oh well fix it sometime".

I cant really say what will happen when its "fixed". Maybe it will work great, but they have been really mistreating pvp players. I bought partisan gear based on what ewh I had, thinking that partisan + ewh would be a good place to start in pvp.

I woke up the next morning to find all of my ewh had 0 expertise. So instead of buying a chest piece to start, I bought random stuff like gloves and implants. BW/EA could have at least given a warning about removing expertise.

I guess I just feel bad for them.

MitchPB's Avatar


MitchPB
04.18.2013 , 05:30 PM | #40
Its funny reading all the PVEers whining about this even though you guys can put 0 effort into PVP and still get the same stats if not better than what a guy who has PVPed his *** off for months
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