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New Hardmode Tuning vs PUG

Never_Hesitate's Avatar

04.18.2013 , 10:09 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Renata_Roselli View Post
If you are having problems with Hard Mode FPs then you don't need to be PvEing. You can 3 man all of them.
once the majority of people has 69 or even 72 equip, it will be as boring as the lvl 50 fp's were in full rakata.
waiting for ...

TralyanSavo's Avatar

04.18.2013 , 10:12 AM | #22
No nerf necessary.

Anyone who says that they should be able to take more damage in the new HM FP's despite being decently geared needs to post what they mean by that. Dread guard is less than entry level gear now. It used to be endgame, and it makes for mighty fine leveling gear, but it is very hard to tank in 63's and 61's. The entry level gear is now 66. This is the gear you buy with basic comms. By the time you do Makeb, you should have enough to buy some 66 gear. On top of that, formulas have changed and I'm sure your gear from pre-2.0 isn't itemized properly.

My Shadow is now in full 69s on the right side, 1 Arkanian relic, Black Market ear, 1 Black Market implant, and level 66 main hand/offhand. The only pre-2.0 gear I have now is a Dread Guard relic and a Black Hole implant. My flashpoint teams are now saying "Remember when this was hard?"

It boils down to learning the mechanics, when to throw cooldowns, how to work each pull, etc. Things are less forgiving now because of the issue of gear. Before 2.0, if you were in Dreadguard you could pretty much solo or two man all of the HM's so when you had someone like that in your group when you were in full Tionese, they were carrying you. Now, no one gets carried because there's no one who can carry (I haven't seen any 72 modded people yet).

If I had a dollar every time a player in full 63's that were min/maxed for pre-2.0 tries to face roll mobs and dies before they realize their mistake...

Also, go back to basics. Mark and make CC's. DPS needs to kill from weak to strong. Do all of this and its easy.

As a tank, I experimented with different ways to handle pulls and I've settled in on the most effective ways to do them. Thinking of some of the difficult pulls:

The 5 strong droids before the 1st boss in Athiss. If with a sage, bubble the tank. Mark droids on one side (depends on how many CC's you have, but generally I seem to have two). Tank pulls, when bubble pops, blow a cooldown. Party gets their CC off. Kill droids that aren't CC'd. Kill cc'd droids one by one.

The dogs that hop up before the first boss in Mandalorian Raiders. CC the dog that starts already spawned from a distance (or with stealth) and LOS the mob out to the entrance of the room. If you have a pull, pull one of the mobs to you and DPS that one does first. Kill mobs after they come out the front of the room then kill the CC'd mob.

The pull in Hammer when three strongs pop out of the side on the opposite side of the room (by the pipe). LOS pull the mobs that start spawned already. You should be able to kill them before the rest of the mob shows up.

Cademimu doesn't have any tough pulls because you can push pretty much everything off the edge. You just have to be careful not to pull multiple mobs. In all the flashpoints, make use of the barrels and stuff that you can make explode for some CC or big spike damage on mobs. These are there for a reason and it seems like not everyone makes use of them.

The bosses also have some mechanics that make them laughably easy. If you're focused on reading guides instead of actually playing, you're probably missing these since you're not experimenting (are you possibly tanking Malgus on the stairs instead of the corner? This might be you!)

Sith Separatist. Have ranged/healer stack tight behind the crate or the corner so there's something between them and the boss. When he pulls the group in, the crate catches them and they won't get pulled in. Tank keep the boss against the back wall since it seems to make running out easier for melee. Reduces the time the healer has to spend healing the group.

Frogimus Maximus. That's what we call the frog boss in Hammer. Ranged stays at max range like in T&Z and they won't get hit by the AOE stun or damage and thus require no healing in the fight. Healer and melee stack behind the boss and close enough to where AOE heal catches the tank also. Healer bubble the tank when the tank receives a debuff that looks like a fist. Tank, pop a cooldown immediately after he channels whatever ability he uses. But if you're a full ranged group, and the healer just has to heal the tank and themselves, its very easy.

Gil. You can have the group hop up on the big cargo crate right next to where Gil spawns. Keep the tank separate and DPS him down and he can't get to the other team members very easily here. Melee just cheats in to hit him then out when the red circle pops. This is kind of like the pull on the Trando boss in FE.

Big Dog Thats what I call the dog boss in Athiss. Fun fact, if you are biochem and have the dog with you, save that dog for this fight. The added DPS from the dog is nice but what is really nice is that having the dog with you lets you activate your Heroic Moment and use your legacy abilities. Crap, now that I wrote that, its gonna get nerfed.

Anyway, play with mechanics. Try to figure out creative ways to approach pulls. Make use of LOS pulls a lot. Take the time before fights to go over mechanics with your group (not everyone has done every boss now, so dont assume everyone knows everything). Work on your gear through getting basics and grinding flashpoints and elite comms.

The new FP's are a lot of fun right now. Let's not ruin them because we're not up to the challenge. Its a chance to develop your skills as a player, which is important if you want to get into operations. Sorry about the wall of text.
Ryaffil (Shadow Tank, Main) - Ryaffia (Guardian) - Odinsun (Sentinel) - Mintass (Commando) - Ryaffam (Gunslinger)
Tralyan (Sorcerer) - Echeara (Juggernaut) - Cran (Mercenary) - Zobess (Operative)
Death Mark - The Shadowlands

MorgothPl's Avatar

04.18.2013 , 10:21 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Renata_Roselli View Post
If you are having problems with Hard Mode FPs then you don't need to be PvEing. You can 3 man all of them.
Video or it didn't happen

Now, I understand that some hardcore people in their hardcore gear can 3-man it. Hell, we 3-manned one of bossess at Athiss, due to DPS dying. But, we have to consider, that there are many people who are new to MMOs. They are still learning, and they may struggle with the content.

The solution however is not to nerf the content, but somehow help those less fortunate with gear, who are still on start of their learning curve, don't have money to buy crafted gear and don't have chars who can craft items for them. I can afford few wipes, if that would teach someone some things about playing this game.

Besides, I'd rather have a new player in the group, who is willing to learn, than "leet" DPS, who behaves like Ares himself, but dies at first trash pack and causes wipes.

zzoorrzz's Avatar

04.18.2013 , 10:24 AM | #24
I tried it first time today, Mandalorian raiders it was. Didn't feel that hard, I think nobody died during whole thing. Average hp was around 25k probably. Maybe I was jsut lucky for good teammates.

Khevar's Avatar

04.18.2013 , 12:55 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by MorgothPl View Post

The solution however is not to nerf the content, but somehow help those less fortunate with gear, who are still on start of their learning curve, don't have money to buy crafted gear and don't have chars who can craft items for them. I can afford few wipes, if that would teach someone some things about playing this game.

Exactly. 100%.

The thing that saddens me is those who come to the forums to ask for nerfs rather than assistance. There are many many helpful people who would quickly help anyone who posted, "I'm having troubles with X, what should I do?"

I know this because I was in this boat last year. I got tips, advice, strategies, help, etc. All anyone has to do is ask.

darthtrunkmonkey's Avatar

04.18.2013 , 02:16 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Glorthox View Post
Either tune the hardmode's down a bit or do one of the following....

1: Fix ability lag. Can't begin to tell you when tanking these new areas how many time I have hit one of my cd's or abilities and them not go off. It isn't until I click the icon multiple times that it wants to work. And a majority of the time its when I'm close to death. So this severely needs to be looked at. Also at times the FP lags at the same time as the ability lag. So if repair cost is going to be this high now, these issues need to be looked at.

2: Raise tank defense % chance. Tank's are suppose to be designed to tank large amounts of damage, but not deal it. They are meat shields, nothing more, nothing less. And when a tank is nearly 3 shotted by trash mobs ( and being decently geared ) there is something wrong. Challenging I understand, but insanely hard is another. Most people will not queue for these new hardmode's because of so many factors. Wipes, repair costs, loot, ability lag, FP lag, trash being too hard, or raise tank's % chance for defense. I used to go into a hardmodes and not have to worry about being wiped out by trash ( unless the healer sucks ).

3: Lower coordination. Most guilds have a high coordination which makes these new hardmodes seem easy to them. However, this doesn't include a PUG's perspective. Most pugs don't have coordination for the new hardmodes. So if people find it too easy, make a "NIGHTMARE" difficulty for hardmodes and have them yield ultimate marks.

4: Dailies. At 55 instead of classic commendations for some dailies, allow basic commendations to be earned. Also raise the amount of credits earned through dailies. If the repair costs are going to be so high, give us a way of earning a higher number of credits.

We all love and enjoy the game in our own unique ways. Challenging in hardmode's isn't a terrible thing, but insanely hard is another. Insanely hard needs to be left to the operations where guilds reign. Hardmode's need to be there for those who aren't fortunate enough to be able to do operations. If things are too hard or things aren't working, then people get frustrated and quit. I know that the elitists who find these hardmode's too easy will bash this post, but who cares. Most come from hardcore guilds or are straight dps. So instead of bashing others, why not look at things from others standpoints and then come to an opinion? IMO keep the damage level where it is and lower the health pools. Honestly these new hardmode's almost feel like "nightmare" mode.
i dont even need to read this to know how bad you are

the mechanics for each fight really havent changed, they have only added somethign to them...

if you need to relearn the mechanics do so...i just got through wiping around 6 times before i said im done when 1 tank didnt even know how to kite the boss to the safe areas(general ortol) and then the replacement tank after i kicked the first one same issue

people really need to start paying attention

darthtrunkmonkey's Avatar

04.18.2013 , 02:21 PM | #27
i keep saying this everyday

theres a guide for practically everything in this game, if your not sure of something take 15mins and go find a guide

the game has been out for more then a year now

the mistakes that are being made in flashpoints are childish and inexcusable

mikebevo's Avatar

04.18.2013 , 03:25 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by darthtrunkmonkey View Post
the mistakes that are being made in flashpoints are childish and inexcusable
And highly predictable consider how over geared people have been for so long.

I leveled my sawbones and when I first got to 50 I kept Slow-release medpac stacked on the tank for every pull, always had 2 or 3 upper hands stacked for every boss pull. Used stealth and CC's before pull. Once I got geared, I never used stealth or CC's, and could heal any HM FP in my sleep.

Like you said that is not an excuse, but I know for sure I caused at least one wipe so far for no other reason than not taking the content seriously. Since then I have been treating 55 HMFP pulls like they were HM EC, NIM EC or HM TfB pulls.

grallmate's Avatar

04.18.2013 , 04:00 PM | #29
I made a post about this within a few hours of hitting 55 on my 63 geared Guardian tank. The biggest problem I've come across is trash difficulty in Mando Raiders RELATIVE to boss difficulty. I've yet to run Hammer Station thanks to bad RNG. I keep getting damn Mando Raiders like ~65% of the time.

Trash in Athiss is pretty faceroll for the most part, bosses are a bit tougher mostly because the new mechanics are tank focused AND the adds for Beast hit like little trucks.

Trash is Cade is mostly fine, only the doggies hit like trucks but none of the pulls are faceroll easy. Bosses are fun and mechanic based. I REALLY like what they've done here, they aren't hard if you do the right thing but they're impossible if you don't. Bosses are harder than trash and you may wipe a couple of times learning them. This is the tuning I think all the 55 HMs should have.

Trash in Mando raiders is brutal. The doggies rip you a new one if you aren't careful. Even now with 69 gear I find myself popping CDs on the 3+ Dog pulls, I reflect the brunt of the Turret pulls but they also hit ludicrously hard. The bosses by comparison are babies with the exception of Boarding Party who can be a PITA if you don't handle them right. I RAELLY like the Boarding Party fight for that reason, its how I'd tune all the other bosses (and inline with the Cade bosses: skill/mechanics > gear).

Important things to note here:
- DPS players won't notice the mob tuning as much as a tank or healer will.
- Good tanks and healers can absolutely make it look faceroll easy. As a tank you can really gauge the quality of the healers on this.

I believe this tuning issue is caused by an oversight when the Shield/Absorb curves were lowered, presumably for PvP reasons. At the same time, Champion mob damage was lowered to compensate but I suspect that Elite/Strong damage remained unchanged. The result being that Elites and Strongs are more deadly relative to Champions (and tanks) than they were. This is compounded by the nature of trash pulls which contain multiple of these enemies while Champions tend to be boss or Ops trash pulls.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

ubermouth's Avatar

04.18.2013 , 04:04 PM | #30
oh god, how could you need the game to be easier?
plz don't make the game easier. we need more challenges.