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Minimum HP for new ops?


FlyinSpaghetti's Avatar


FlyinSpaghetti
04.17.2013 , 05:25 PM | #1
I know health points aren't a clear indicator on how well a player is geared but when you're putting together PuG ops, looking at the raid frame can give you a clue on whether someone is massively undergeared for the op. For example before 2.0 the gear requirement for TFB SM was columi, now I'm not going to be a gear snob and require everyone to of had BH but if I seen someone who joined the group with 15k HP I'd know that they would probably be worth removing unless they were getting another alt or changing gear.

Now for 2.0 the bar has been raised higher but how high?

Here's what I think are the minimums before you start asking questions/inspecting players gear:

DPS/Healers: 24K HP

Tanks: 29K HP

I believe if you got less than that amount of hp then you probably still wearing a lot of black hole which doesn't quite cut it for the new ops.

Anyone think that's too tight?
Quote: Originally Posted by BaronV View Post
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Stressfire's Avatar


Stressfire
04.17.2013 , 05:48 PM | #2
Is HP really that great of an indicator anymore? Lots of the new gear seems very heavy on Endurance, regardless of class or spec, to the detriment of other stats.

DawnAskham's Avatar


DawnAskham
04.17.2013 , 06:24 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Stressfire View Post
Is HP really that great of an indicator anymore? Lots of the new gear seems very heavy on Endurance, regardless of class or spec, to the detriment of other stats.
^

I've inspected quite a few 55s with absolute garbage gear, mostly Basic / Black Market / Arkanian with heavy endurance and poor secondary stats.

Of course it isn't totally their fault, gear itemization at 55 right now is crap for almost every class. And for some, it actually gets worse the better the gear (more endurance and less main / sec stat going to an Ultimate piece over an Elite).

If you want to set minimums, I'd look for other stats to measure and actually inspect the players.

Toraak's Avatar


Toraak
04.17.2013 , 06:27 PM | #4
Honestly for SM TFB dreadguard gear is plenty if you have your secondary stats set up right. My guild did a full tfb sm run with only 1 of our tanks in more then 63 gear. But we were Optimized in that 63 gear from before 2.0
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Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
04.17.2013 , 06:36 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
I believe if you got less than that amount of hp then you probably still wearing a lot of black hole which doesn't quite cut it for the new ops.
Lol. 61s are plenty for SM TFB and SM S&V.

Itemised 63s can clear HM TFB and the first six bosses of HM S&V.
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FlyinSpaghetti's Avatar


FlyinSpaghetti
04.17.2013 , 10:11 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
Lol. 61s are plenty for SM TFB and SM S&V.

Itemised 63s can clear HM TFB and the first six bosses of HM S&V.
The thread is more for expectations of everyday PuG's rather than what experienced raiders can do, for example on olok with the droids while 2k DPS is achievable in itemized 61's can you really expect just every BH geared PuG to be hitting the 2k required (in story mode) to clear the droids off each line in a minute (going by the 500k a line rule) in just black hole?

I think it's asking too much to accept people two tiers under the recommended gear level (156) when forming a group, problem is we are probably used to seeing people over 20K HP in the raid frame and thinking they are geared enough for any content however now on 2.0 I'm thinking 20K HP is the new "15K HP" if you get my drift?
Quote: Originally Posted by BaronV View Post
Thats no moon... thats a CARTEL COIN!

DawnAskham's Avatar


DawnAskham
04.18.2013 , 07:57 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
The thread is more for expectations of everyday PuG's rather than what experienced raiders can do, for example on olok with the droids while 2k DPS is achievable in itemized 61's can you really expect just every BH geared PuG to be hitting the 2k required (in story mode) to clear the droids off each line in a minute (going by the 500k a line rule) in just black hole?

I think it's asking too much to accept people two tiers under the recommended gear level (156) when forming a group, problem is we are probably used to seeing people over 20K HP in the raid frame and thinking they are geared enough for any content however now on 2.0 I'm thinking 20K HP is the new "15K HP" if you get my drift?
Very much so, though you have to be much more aware of other stats now as so much of the gear available is heavy endurance with lots of junk secondary stats.

From what I've seen, looking at someones HP isn't going to tell you much there as doesn't seem to be a strong correlation between performance and HP, other than at the extreme low end (e.g. so little HP it is clear they don't even have 61 / 63 gear).

On the other hand, I see a strong correlation between good performance and having people in optimized gear, even if a goof bit of their mods are 61 / 63, and a strong correlation between average to low performance and people wearing whatever non-optimized crap itemization gear Bioware stuck on the vendors or loot tables.

For me, I'll take players in mostly optimized gear sets, even those with a good bit of older gear mods and having lower HP, over players with a lot of HP wearing all new gear that is stock / non-optimized.

I just find a very strong correlation between performance and gear optimization that suggests players with the ability and willingness to optimize will also be players that will perform better in an Operation.

And right now, optimized players may easily have several K less HP than non-optimized players.

Ocho-Quatro's Avatar


Ocho-Quatro
04.18.2013 , 08:07 AM | #8
Looking at HP isn't a great indicator, but not a completely terrible one either.

Tanks mitigation have been severely cut back, and they now rely a lot more on focused heals and a large health pool... so when I see a level 55 tank, with 27k HP pop into a HM FP or Op in the GF, it typically means he is in 61/63s and likely has extremely low mitigation, so unless the healer(s) in the group is decently geared, it's going to be a struggle. I ran a HM Mando Raiders on my DPS Merc last night, with a fresh 55 Assassin with 27k HP, with a full 66/69 healer, and the tank was getting hit SO hard that in most pulls, in addition to my dps, i was doing between 350-550 HPS just to help the healer keep the tank alive. Translate that to TfB or S&V? And it might equal a non-starter.

On the flipside of that, your DPS/Heals at 24k? That is not too far off from what they will have in level 50 raiding gear just by hitting 55. The problem won't be their HP. It will be secondary stats. Critical/Surge/Accuracy take a HUGE hit leveling from 50 to 55. I know my Merc lost 10% (at least) both Crit and Surge in full Campaign/Dread Guard while leveling to 55, and my accuracy dropped about 4%. That is a MUCH bigger deal than how many hitpoints I have. Now, I still have my WH/DG relics, DG Chest, and a few random 61 enhancements in my build, but everything else is 66/69, (few of my 66's are blues, so don't be misled) and I have 29k HP (and I am using all Reflex armorings, and no letter mods), with 2,729 Aim.... But since I still have some old enhancements, my Accuracy is still 98%, my buffed Crit is just barely 25%, and my Surge is only 63.5%. So while my HP pool may make me appear to be "holy moley that guy is geared!" I still have a long way to go with itemization to get my secondary stats where I want them. It's even a bigger deal for healers. (I will use Sages as a comparison, because that is what i play.) As I am leveling my sage, watching especially my Crit go down, I am witnessing Healing Trance crit less and less. Which is huge, because it's one of the main staples of my healing rotation, and the crits on it proc my "free" Noble Sacrifice and the ability to instant-cast Salvation... so low crit on a healing sage/sorc is kind of a big deal, and that won't be something you see by looking at someone's HP.

Just my 2credits.
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BlownSi's Avatar


BlownSi
04.18.2013 , 08:26 AM | #9
My guild cleared Scum and Villany on SM in basically 63 gear on all, with a few 61 pieces mixed in on a few toons here and there. Our tanks were at about 32-33K hp. After that run and with everyone running the new FP's, we have everyone in a mix of 63 and 69 gear and we are blasting through SM with ease. The focus seems to be much more about mechanics in this new op then shear use of gear to overpower the content, which I personally enjoy.
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Ocho-Quatro's Avatar


Ocho-Quatro
04.18.2013 , 08:35 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by BlownSi View Post
My guild cleared Scum and Villany on SM in basically 63 gear on all, with a few 61 pieces mixed in on a few toons here and there. Our tanks were at about 32-33K hp. After that run and with everyone running the new FP's, we have everyone in a mix of 63 and 69 gear and we are blasting through SM with ease. The focus seems to be much more about mechanics in this new op then shear use of gear to overpower the content, which I personally enjoy.
I cannot argue, that in just about any fight that is not a pure Tank'n'Spank "DPS Race" --- Skill > Gear almost every time. Mechanics heavy fights, and fights that require a lot of team coordination and situational awareness are far more dependent on the person at the keyboard moreso than the gear score of the character.

That said.... I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain that a level 55 tank in "basically 63 gear" is not going to have 32-33k HP, unless maybe they are stacked for endurance with letter-mods and fortitude augments? in which case, that is even more sacrificed mitigation on an already reduced return rate in the 2.0 world. Like I said, I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain that level 55 tanks aren't hitting 33k in 63s.
TOROCast - Star Wars: The Old Republic's Longest Running Fan Podcast
Apos'trophe (55) Sage - Ellip'sis (55) Vanguard - Quotation (55) Sentinel
Aster'isk (55) Mercenary - Back'slash (55) Assassin - Per'iod (55) Operative
The Punctuation Legacy