Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Why should I feel bad about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why should I feel bad about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's?

Lelvannia's Avatar


Lelvannia
04.17.2013 , 05:20 PM | #51
Fine. You should feel bad because your "enjoyment" comes with the following prices:

- Gear grinds make having alts impossible
- Gear gap screws up game enjoyment for MOST (*) veteran players (when I kill someone I'd prefer to be able to say to myself: "HAH! I was better!" rather than "oh well, poor recruit-guy, never even had a chance with this gear")
- Gear gap screws up game enjoyment for non-veteran players (whatever gave you the idea that new players have some holy obligation to join warzones and get facerolled by everyone for your personal enjoyment, until they can get gear?!)
- Gear gap drives casual players away (and sorry, but I don't see why just because Mr. X happens to have a life and Mr. Y doesn't, why should Mr. Y get advantage over Mr. X. Mr. Y should be more skilled anyway, from all the time he spends in the game, and if he's not then he deserves to get ganked) and casual players are what keeps every MMO profitable for the company
- Most normal people would prefer matches to be won based on SKILL of the participants, not based on how much time they spend in game

(*) Of course there are those veteran players who just keep playing a lot... and don't have ANY skill to show for it. Take away their gear advantage and they're going to get pooned by pretty much everyone, hence the QQ about naked warzones.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
04.17.2013 , 05:23 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Looking at the numbers on level 55 bracket, unless I'm missing something, my 28K HP with Partisan gear sure looks better than the guys in 24K HP. I've no idea what they're wearing (maybe they didn't get the memo naked PvP no longer works), but it sure looks worse than what I got. The gear still gives you an advantage. It's just not like the old day where you win 1on2 and thank your EWH gear, WZ adrenal, and WZ medpack for having your back because it sure wasn't your skill that was responsible for winning.
I have 24k hp at 55, wearing my EWH gear.

I think what has most people disturbed is that old pvp gear means absolutely nothing- you pretty much might as well be naked.

There's no question that gear means as much as it always has- and that without it, you will suck at pvp.

This game has always been gear>skill- I don't see why anyone expected a change.

Malastare's Avatar


Malastare
04.17.2013 , 05:31 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by BalphoWan View Post
I don't think we disagree that gear should give you some advantage. At that point it is just a discussion of quantity. You and I may disagree on how much of an advantage should come with better gear. That is merely just our opinions, and there isn't much discussion warranted on that subject.
Agreed. You want a greater advantage based on gear. I want a lesser advantage. Either of them are opinions. My only minor disagreement here is that there may be some discussion warranted based on the simple lesson that I, a reasonable good PvP player who gets a lot of enjoyment from PvP, was driven away by the level of advantage that you want. Conversely: You are annoyed by the level of advantage that I want, because ... it doesn't make you feel as cool, and it may eventually cause you to stop playing PvP. Either way: it's a potential player lost.

The minor discussion could be simply trying to gauge how many players are like you and how many are like me. I don't know the numbers and I won't put down a guess here, but its something that the community and Bioware could/should take interest in.

Quote: Originally Posted by BalphoWan View Post
The point is that I worked long and hard to get my gear. I also worked long and hard to develop whatever PVP skills I have. And I think that the time and effort i put into getting those skills and gear warrant reward.
This is where we strongly disagree. The reward you want is to be able to annoy/drive away players. You are explicitly asking for an advantage strong enough to overcome skill, to the point that no starting player has any hope of defeating you in 1-on-1 battle.

I find that silly and harmful to the PvP player base. I also feel that it cheapens PvP and gives players in high-level PvP armor a bad reputation as people who grind for the explicit purpose of gaining an advantage that will let them appear to be skilled.

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 05:54 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Malastare View Post
Agreed. You want a greater advantage based on gear. I want a lesser advantage. Either of them are opinions. My only minor disagreement here is that there may be some discussion warranted based on the simple lesson that I, a reasonable good PvP player who gets a lot of enjoyment from PvP, was driven away by the level of advantage that you want. Conversely: You are annoyed by the level of advantage that I want, because ... it doesn't make you feel as cool, and it may eventually cause you to stop playing PvP. Either way: it's a potential player lost.

The minor discussion could be simply trying to gauge how many players are like you and how many are like me. I don't know the numbers and I won't put down a guess here, but its something that the community and Bioware could/should take interest in.



This is where we strongly disagree. The reward you want is to be able to annoy/drive away players. You are explicitly asking for an advantage strong enough to overcome skill, to the point that no starting player has any hope of defeating you in 1-on-1 battle.

I find that silly and harmful to the PvP player base. I also feel that it cheapens PvP and gives players in high-level PvP armor a bad reputation as people who grind for the explicit purpose of gaining an advantage that will let them appear to be skilled.
I can't keep saying the same things over and over again. Please read my former posts. I don't want to drive anyone away. I am still here after the grind so why would I think that it would drive other players away? I don't think it would drive other players away. It hasn't driven yyou away either. That is where we fundamentally disagree, and I don't know how much more we can beat a dead horse. I also don't want an advantage "to be cool." I want my time invested in PVP to reap a gear advantage which gives me an edge in PVP. That is how almost every single PVP paradigm is set up in every MMO on the market. I am not suggesting a novel concept. We just disagree about the degree of advantage that should be gained. That's all. I don't know what else can be said.

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 05:55 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Lelvannia View Post
Fine. You should feel bad because your "enjoyment" comes with the following prices:

- Gear grinds make having alts impossible
- Gear gap screws up game enjoyment for MOST (*) veteran players (when I kill someone I'd prefer to be able to say to myself: "HAH! I was better!" rather than "oh well, poor recruit-guy, never even had a chance with this gear")
- Gear gap screws up game enjoyment for non-veteran players (whatever gave you the idea that new players have some holy obligation to join warzones and get facerolled by everyone for your personal enjoyment, until they can get gear?!)
- Gear gap drives casual players away (and sorry, but I don't see why just because Mr. X happens to have a life and Mr. Y doesn't, why should Mr. Y get advantage over Mr. X. Mr. Y should be more skilled anyway, from all the time he spends in the game, and if he's not then he deserves to get ganked) and casual players are what keeps every MMO profitable for the company
- Most normal people would prefer matches to be won based on SKILL of the participants, not based on how much time they spend in game

(*) Of course there are those veteran players who just keep playing a lot... and don't have ANY skill to show for it. Take away their gear advantage and they're going to get pooned by pretty much everyone, hence the QQ about naked warzones.
I simply disagree with your assertions, and I don't think you can speak for MOSt veteran PVP players. But again, you are entitled to your opinion. Thanks for the response.

Rantank's Avatar


Rantank
04.17.2013 , 06:00 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by Malastare View Post
This is where we strongly disagree. The reward you want is to be able to annoy/drive away players. You are explicitly asking for an advantage strong enough to overcome skill, to the point that no starting player has any hope of defeating you in 1-on-1 battle.

I find that silly and harmful to the PvP player base. I also feel that it cheapens PvP and gives players in high-level PvP armor a bad reputation as people who grind for the explicit purpose of gaining an advantage that will let them appear to be skilled.
Ok so you are delighted that PVPers lost their rewards for their time spent in game. What do you think should replace it? You specifically want to claw back any advancement a PVPer might make, back to starting level because hey, it makes you feel better. Why is your time in game more valuable than mine? There shouldn't be huge gear level advantages I agree, but these changes have gone too far. They didn't just remove the carrot, they removed the whole damn vegetable garden. They castrated PVP gear and put training wheels on PVE gear, plus allowed the PVE gear's higher budget stats to carry over into PVP. And so far I'm not seeing any reward for the PVPers. Just a whole lot of taking away, and nothing to strive for in PVP anymore.
Defeating a standing army goes for time and a half.

SystemProcess's Avatar


SystemProcess
04.17.2013 , 07:04 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Lelvannia View Post
Fine. You should feel bad because your "enjoyment" comes with the following prices:

- Gear grinds make having alts impossible No it doesn't.
- Gear gap screws up game enjoyment for MOST (*) veteran players (when I kill someone I'd prefer to be able to say to myself: "HAH! I was better!" rather than "oh well, poor recruit-guy, never even had a chance with this gear") I wasn't aware you spoke for most veteran players, not that I disagree.
- Gear gap screws up game enjoyment for non-veteran players (whatever gave you the idea that new players have some holy obligation to join warzones and get facerolled by everyone for your personal enjoyment, until they can get gear?!) I have leveled up several 50s since I first started playing, and I started to go through the gear grind on my marauder when everyone was in EWH and I was in recruit. It's doable
- Gear gap drives casual players away (and sorry, but I don't see why just because Mr. X happens to have a life and Mr. Y doesn't, why should Mr. Y get advantage over Mr. X. Mr. Y should be more skilled anyway, from all the time he spends in the game, and if he's not then he deserves to get ganked) and casual players are what keeps every MMO profitable for the company So people who go through the gear grind suddenly don't have lives now?
- Most normal people would prefer matches to be won based on SKILL of the participants, not based on how much time they spend in game Time in game is often equivalent to skill in the fact that someone who PvPs more is likely to be more SKILLED, gear or not. This isn't 100% fact, though!

(*) Of course there are those veteran players who just keep playing a lot... and don't have ANY skill to show for it. Take away their gear advantage and they're going to get pooned by pretty much everyone, hence the QQ about naked warzones.
/10char
Alis'hir'altara - Chiss Operative
Naznys Dak-ma - Echani Assassin - Sphere of Mysteries
Darth Valmaxian Vercetti - Human Marauder - Sphere of Technology

The Vercetti Legacy

Crawelc's Avatar


Crawelc
04.17.2013 , 07:15 PM | #58
You shouldnt, but they will still try to make you feel bad. I remember purples and greens vs battlemaster gear. Alas poor SWtoR, I knew him Horatio
Imprimis <Fight><Redemption><Conquest>
All Imprimis All the time.

ChicagoBearsFan's Avatar


ChicagoBearsFan
04.17.2013 , 07:57 PM | #59
Balphowan,
Why do you feel you need justify your self to the community? As long as you are operating within the bounds of the game and the ToS/EULA, (ie, not cheating) then what does it matter if you do or do not enjoy "face rolling noobs"? We all have our own convictions and I do not determine mine by what the community says.

There are those who will come down on either side of any given fence...so it's for you to decide which side you want to be on in regards to this issue.
Just be warned though, if you land on my side, I'm going to blast you with my assault cannon
Bearsfan - Commando Healer / DPS
Chicago - Shadow Tank
BeÓrs - Scoundrel Healer
<The Jedi of Camelot>JawaSpanker Legacy ~ POT5 Server

Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
04.17.2013 , 08:11 PM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Obviously skilled players can also spend less time to do the same things. For example let's say you get exactly 100 comms per game and you win exactly 50% fo your game. For a lowbie, you'd need 1.33 games to finish your daily, and assuming you put all your comms into consumables as well, then you get (13.3 + 20) / 1.33 = ~25 consumables per game.

Now for a level 55 character with the identical payout, you'd need 2.66 games to finish your daily which nets you 30 consumables (this is assuming you used your RWZ comms to buy consumables), so you get (26.6 + 30) / 2.66 = 21.3 consumables per game. And this is assuming you make the rather ridiculous decision to use all your RWZ from the daily to buy consumables. So clearly, it is always more beneficial to have an alt running dailys to replenish your consumables and that's the smart thing to do. An unskilled player might not realize this. But I'd argue the overwhelming case for the average guy you used to roll over, he isn't thinking about consumables at all because whatever comms he has needs to go into gear first, so he's not choosing this by choice. The guy with a ton of consumables probably did put in some thought as to how to obtain them efficeintly, but the guy who isn't using them is doing so because he doesn't even have the time to get geared (which is why he got rolled) so even if he knew how to optimally get consumables, it doesn't help him.
Well, the thing about skill affecting times to get geared aren't really valid imo. A number of reasons;
a) This is a team based game, where the most comms are being rewarded to overall performance. Now, I don't care how good you are, a decent team together can annihlate you if you've been screwed by the Biogod's Qing system. As a result, wins, and consequently the extra comms that come with them usually are resultant from an overall lucky Q streak, not individuals skill

b) This game rewards participation over performance; Maybe it's just a gear thing, but I know when I first started playing PvP, I wasn't great. Even after I became relatively good, it still took me awhile. Even now, well above the average baddy (Maybe its my newly found optimized WH in conjunction with OP sniper, idk), I still feel like I don't get that many more comms unless I'm Qing with a Physics premade.

I know when playing Crysis 3, it took me ~4 days to get good, set GFX seetings to x1, and then the xp I gained was like times 3. Shooter games, well, crysis in particular, are definitely more skill-based, and certainly more "lone-wolf" friendly. I never even considered myself above average in that game, even after my huge leap forward.

I remember thinking that all the people who had all the attatchments to their guns only beat me because of the better stats. I was wrong. By the time I was able to be good enough to obtain the mods by this point in release (less than a week), I was good enough to use any gun. Lots of good performance doesn't necessarily equate to more comms, at least in my experience

c) Extremely low skillcap. Let's be honest, anyone who can call themselves exceptionally "skilled" at this game has got to be kidding themselves. The ability to press buttons is insignificant next to the power of the force. Very skilled players will find themselves performing barely better when it comes to easy newb-friendly classes like Mercs that require a low skill ceiling to obtain a mean level of skill that would require much more effort in a class like an Assassin or Operative. Consequently, those classes are perceived as overpowered when skilled individuals use the class' tools to their advantage. I tend to fall into this group, because I am damned furious whenever I want to activate resilience, yet have no cooldowns that give me any sort of edge over an Assassin (Now I have a roll, so watch out! :P). Even though I possess the skill to hit the button, and the strategy to know when/where to hit it, I am unable to do so because of gameplay mechanics. These mechanics mean that even skilled players will not get to use certain tools to their advantage, even if they can use them better than baddies.

Baddies with shroud >usually better than> skilled individuals without shroud.
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box