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Why should I feel bad about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why should I feel bad about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's?

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 01:42 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Until recently when the price of WZ adrenal/medpack crashed, they were absolutely a 'gear' part. They're not even usable optimally (which would be chugging as many as you reasonably can) even for fairly hardcore players and not usable strategically for any casual player. If something can be bought with credits it's not skill. Preparing for the enemy would be skill if it's like say, "I know these guy like to hit this spot with these guys so we need to be ready for it". Running an alt to do dailys for more WZ adrenal/medpack is not skill. It's like saying being level 55 instead of level 54 before you try to gank someone is skill because obviously being at level 55 gives you a better chance to successfully gank someone.
I don't want to get into a semantic debate about what it means to be "skilled." What I am saying is that taking the time to get every advantage you can when going into a WZ is something that I think skilled players do. That is just my opinion. I think there is skill in looking for the best ways to make sure you are prepared to have every edge you can in a WZ. If that means researching the cheapest/fastest ways to replensih you stock of medpacs/adrenals, then I think that is part of being a skilled player. All I am really saying is that gear, whether it be gear you wear or consumables, and skill are inseparable. And when two players face off in PVP, the combination of both play intertwined roles that are difficult to disseminate. And I will say this, I have met geared players that are unskilled, but I have met very few skilled players that are not geared. In other words, when you are talking about PVP vets, separating skill from gear is moot, because more often than not they have both, and it is difficult to discern how much of each was responsible for him facerolling an opponenent with neither. Thus, again, whether it is skill or gear that creates the advantage, is not the issue. Whether you think the advantage should exist and whether you think players should revel in the advantage is the issue.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
04.17.2013 , 01:47 PM | #32
Just because skilled players are almost certainly well geared does not imply the reverse, namely well geared players are skilled.

There's nothing 'skill' about preparing in ways that are constrained by resources. You can hand any bad player 5 stacks of WZ consumables and he'll be able to use them fine, probably even better than a skilled player since he's not concerned about replenishing them to begin with.

Undergeared characters almost certainly do not have time, because otherwise they wouldn't be undergeared. Therefore it is also impossible for them to gain any advantage that is a function of time investment. I don't particularly have a problem with that, but I have never heard of skill being defined as 'having more time than the other guy'.

Malastare's Avatar


Malastare
04.17.2013 , 01:57 PM | #33
I'm sure by now, everyone has moved on to bashing whoever they imagine is supporting their pet peeve, but to address the original topic a bit:

I enjoy PvP. My wife enjoys PvP. After some reluctance, we both jumped into the sub-50 PvP while leveling a pair of our many characters. With a little practice, we got fairly good. We have our off matches and some characters just aren't set up for certain matches, but in general we find ourselves in the top half of pretty much all the matches we play. On our higher level characters, we're reliably near the top. We're usually maxed on our Valor rank. We are regularly shopping comms for gear because we have loads of them. But for over a year: We stopped as soon as we hit Lvl 50.

Why?

Because reaching 50 was like crawling onto a highway. After a long journey, you reach your goal... only to be steamrolled with no hope of survival.

For a long time, we just assumed that this was because the Lvl50 PvPers had been at max level for a while and were just more practiced and skilled than we were. We have jobs and other hobbies and no real desire to treat the game like some sport, so we're very unlikely to join in on that sort of gameplay. When our most recent pair hit 50, we (for some reason) planned it out to max out our WZ comms and buy up a number of WH pieces. Somewhat cautiously, we tossed them on our characters with a bunch of the recruit gear and gave Lvl50 PvP another try.

And it was still disappointing. But in a different way.

We were in mixed Recruit/War-Hero gear.... and doing well. We could see that the people around us were in better gear than we were, but we were still making kills. We ninja-capped two pylons. We 2-vs-2'ed another pylon, killed them both and capped the pylon. We defended a pylon against 4 other players. And it became clear why we hadn't done well in the past.

Gear was everything.

Many of the people we were playing with weren't actually all that good --at least, no good enough to warrant any particular respect. We remembered way better players from the sub-50 bracket. There were still the PvP Monsters, but they existed in sub-50, too. It became really clear that a lot of the people in the Lvl50 bracket were totally dependent on their gear advantage, and the moment you removed that, they were just average players.

Why should you feel back about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's? The greater the chance that you faceroll them, the fewer of them that will be willing to even join in. And if you care at all about PvP, then that should be something that concerns you.

More importantly: You should feel bad because many of them are better than you, and the only reason you can stand up to them is because you've got your gear protecting you.

I'm still not going to be playing WZs to prove my skill. I'm not going to practice to be the best I can be. I'm going to enjoy myself. But its going to be easier to do that now that I won't be sucker-punched for three weeks after hitting 55 by a bunch of players who are only effective when their targets are at a severe disadvantage.

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 02:08 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Just because skilled players are almost certainly well geared does not imply the reverse, namely well geared players are skilled.

There's nothing 'skill' about preparing in ways that are constrained by resources. You can hand any bad player 5 stacks of WZ consumables and he'll be able to use them fine, probably even better than a skilled player since he's not concerned about replenishing them to begin with.

Undergeared characters almost certainly do not have time, because otherwise they wouldn't be undergeared. Therefore it is also impossible for them to gain any advantage that is a function of time investment. I don't particularly have a problem with that, but I have never heard of skill being defined as 'having more time than the other guy'.
Noted. But that is not how I define it. I am saying that your, and admittedly mant others', definition of "skill" is too narrow. Your assertion that having more time does not equate to skill is diificult to refute. But that is not what I am saying. I might say that spending your time wisely to gain as many advantages in WZ's is something a skilled player would do. Or rather, someone who doesn't take time that they have to adequately prepare for WZ's is not as skilled. But again, this isn't really the issue I intended to discuss in my OP.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
04.17.2013 , 02:21 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by BalphoWan View Post
Noted. But that is not how I define it. I am saying that your, and admittedly mant others', definition of "skill" is too narrow. Your assertion that having more time does not equate to skill is diificult to refute. But that is not what I am saying. I might say that spending your time wisely to gain as many advantages in WZ's is something a skilled player would do. Or rather, someone who doesn't take time that they have to adequately prepare for WZ's is not as skilled. But again, this isn't really the issue I intended to discuss in my OP.
Obviously skilled players can also spend less time to do the same things. For example let's say you get exactly 100 comms per game and you win exactly 50% fo your game. For a lowbie, you'd need 1.33 games to finish your daily, and assuming you put all your comms into consumables as well, then you get (13.3 + 20) / 1.33 = ~25 consumables per game.

Now for a level 55 character with the identical payout, you'd need 2.66 games to finish your daily which nets you 30 consumables (this is assuming you used your RWZ comms to buy consumables), so you get (26.6 + 30) / 2.66 = 21.3 consumables per game. And this is assuming you make the rather ridiculous decision to use all your RWZ from the daily to buy consumables. So clearly, it is always more beneficial to have an alt running dailys to replenish your consumables and that's the smart thing to do. An unskilled player might not realize this. But I'd argue the overwhelming case for the average guy you used to roll over, he isn't thinking about consumables at all because whatever comms he has needs to go into gear first, so he's not choosing this by choice. The guy with a ton of consumables probably did put in some thought as to how to obtain them efficeintly, but the guy who isn't using them is doing so because he doesn't even have the time to get geared (which is why he got rolled) so even if he knew how to optimally get consumables, it doesn't help him.

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
04.17.2013 , 02:27 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by BalphoWan View Post
I have been going through the forums the last couple of days listening to all the flaming and the QQing about bolster and the removal of expertise from E/WH gear. I have read alot of posts in favor of the new bolster system. Those posts usually praise the attempt to eliminate the gap between a fully BIS geared PVP player and a fresh 55 with little to no PVP gear. Many of those that have taken that position often flame PVP players for wanting to roflstomp fresh level 55 players. I find myself feeling ashamed that I enjoy doing that. And this has started to bother me.

I came into 2.0 with half WH and half EWH gear. I am at valor rank 70. I took my licks to get there like everyone else. I have played MMO's for years, and this is the first one that I have played PVP. I have always been predominantly a PVE player (and still am). When I finally decided to jump head first into PVP, it was VERY frustrating. But with every WZ it got more and more fun, and I started to get an edge. Eventually, three of my guildies and I started to really be able to "dominate" in about 80% of the WZ's we entered. It was really fun! But more importantly, it was earned.

Now, I LOVE an evenly matched WZ. But, as a PVE player,my first love is the gear hunt. Without a juicy carrot hanging in front of my face, I get bored easily. It is that aspect of MMO's to which I have always been drawn. I guess that is why I was never bothered with the gap between fresh 50's and full EWH 50's prior to 2.0. There was that huge carrot of wanting to get the gear that would enable me to dominate like all of those players who facerolled me when I first started playing WZ's.

An now to my point. Why do I have to feel ashamed about that??? Is there honor in facerolling a noob with no PVP gear? No. But it does make you feel like the gear you took the time to earn means something; like it is powerful. And I don't feel like that is something I should have to hide. So...

MY NAME IS BALPHOWAN. I PLAY PVP. AND I LIKE TO FACEROLL NOOBS SOMETIMES.

Then you're half of everything that is wrong with PVP. Wanting a carrot is one thing. Wanting others to get facerolled just because you were frustrated shows an amazing lack of empathy, and an underlying belief that the only way you can beat fresh 55s is if you out gear them. You should be able to beat them cause you're better than they are, having acquired that skill by PVPing. If someone is better than you, they should beat you. At the very least they should have a fighting chance. You still have an advantage over them with full conq gear. You just can't faceoll them. If you don't like them then you're the kinda person that I always thought the bads made up to justify their QQ. Don't be someone who justifies baddie QQ.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 02:30 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Malastare View Post
I'm sure by now, everyone has moved on to bashing whoever they imagine is supporting their pet peeve, but to address the original topic a bit:

I enjoy PvP. My wife enjoys PvP. After some reluctance, we both jumped into the sub-50 PvP while leveling a pair of our many characters. With a little practice, we got fairly good. We have our off matches and some characters just aren't set up for certain matches, but in general we find ourselves in the top half of pretty much all the matches we play. On our higher level characters, we're reliably near the top. We're usually maxed on our Valor rank. We are regularly shopping comms for gear because we have loads of them. But for over a year: We stopped as soon as we hit Lvl 50.

Why?

Because reaching 50 was like crawling onto a highway. After a long journey, you reach your goal... only to be steamrolled with no hope of survival.

For a long time, we just assumed that this was because the Lvl50 PvPers had been at max level for a while and were just more practiced and skilled than we were. We have jobs and other hobbies and no real desire to treat the game like some sport, so we're very unlikely to join in on that sort of gameplay. When our most recent pair hit 50, we (for some reason) planned it out to max out our WZ comms and buy up a number of WH pieces. Somewhat cautiously, we tossed them on our characters with a bunch of the recruit gear and gave Lvl50 PvP another try.

And it was still disappointing. But in a different way.

We were in mixed Recruit/War-Hero gear.... and doing well. We could see that the people around us were in better gear than we were, but we were still making kills. We ninja-capped two pylons. We 2-vs-2'ed another pylon, killed them both and capped the pylon. We defended a pylon against 4 other players. And it became clear why we hadn't done well in the past.

Gear was everything.

Many of the people we were playing with weren't actually all that good --at least, no good enough to warrant any particular respect. We remembered way better players from the sub-50 bracket. There were still the PvP Monsters, but they existed in sub-50, too. It became really clear that a lot of the people in the Lvl50 bracket were totally dependent on their gear advantage, and the moment you removed that, they were just average players.

Why should you feel back about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's? The greater the chance that you faceroll them, the fewer of them that will be willing to even join in. And if you care at all about PvP, then that should be something that concerns you.

More importantly: You should feel bad because many of them are better than you, and the only reason you can stand up to them is because you've got your gear protecting you.

I'm still not going to be playing WZs to prove my skill. I'm not going to practice to be the best I can be. I'm going to enjoy myself. But its going to be easier to do that now that I won't be sucker-punched for three weeks after hitting 55 by a bunch of players who are only effective when their targets are at a severe disadvantage.
I understand what you are saying, and I respect your opinion. But I think you, like many others, are misunderstanding what I am saying and oversimplifying the skill vs gear debate. I am not trying to say there aren't many players out there with good PVP gear who are not "skilled" at PVP. Becuase of the fact that, in theory, you can get the gear without ever killing another player in PVP, it is obvious that an unskilled player could get good gear. But doesn't the unskilled PVP player who got the gear deserve a reward for putting in the time? But regardless, that is not the issue. You say that "gear is everything." The isue is how much an advantage should be gained from gear. I don't think we disagree that gear should give you some advantage. At that point it is just a discussion of quantity. You and I may disagree on how much of an advantage should come with better gear. That is merely just our opinions, and there isn't much discussion warranted on that subject.

The more important thing you said, in my opinon, is that I should be concerned with the gear gap driving away PVP players like yourself. And as I mentioned in a previous post, I am concerned about that. There has to be a balance. We just disgree on where to strike that balance. And that's okay. It is not necessary to personally attack and say that my gear is the only thing giving me an advantage. That may be true. I don't think it is, but it may be. The point is that I worked long and hard to get my gear. I also worked long and hard to develop whatever PVP skills I have. And I think that the time and effort i put into getting those skills and gear warrant reward. In my opinion. that reward should be a distinct advantage against lesser skilled and/or lesser geared players. Hence, I don't think I should be ashamed when I reap that reward in the form of facerolling a lesser skilled and/or lesser geared player.

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 02:36 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
Then you're half of everything that is wrong with PVP. Wanting a carrot is one thing. Wanting others to get facerolled just because you were frustrated shows an amazing lack of empathy, and an underlying belief that the only way you can beat fresh 55s is if you out gear them. You should be able to beat them cause you're better than they are, having acquired that skill by PVPing. If someone is better than you, they should beat you. At the very least they should have a fighting chance. You still have an advantage over them with full conq gear. You just can't faceoll them. If you don't like them then you're the kinda person that I always thought the bads made up to justify their QQ. Don't be someone who justifies baddie QQ.
You are sorely misunderstanding me. I never said nor do I want others to get facerolled. I said that I enjoy when it happens sometimes, and I don't think I should be ashamed of enjoying it. I also explicitly said in a later post that I do not seek out lesser geared and/or lesser skilled players. If I did, I would have griefed players during the Gree open world PVP event on Ilum. That is something very different from your accusation. I choose targets in a WZ based on strategy in that particular WZ. I enjoy a fight on an even playing field, much more than when I faceroll a lesser geared/skilled player. But why can I not enjoy both, especiially when I do not seek out the latter?? Why can't I enjoy the fact that it took me a lot of time and effort to be able to get to a point where I can do that?? Is that so bad?? If it is, then I am guilty as charged.

And by your logic, I can enjoy facerolling someone if I am more skilled than them, but not if it iis because I am more geared. Why?? Both take time and effort to acquire. Whether it is skill or gear that is the reason I facerolled an opponent, neither were given to me. They were earned. So why is one more honorable than the other??

Lelvannia's Avatar


Lelvannia
04.17.2013 , 03:12 PM | #39
OMG BalphoWan, I agree completely. In fact I think your rule should apply to every competition human beings engage in, not just MMOs. Let's take chess for example. Obviously the current system is broken, giving every player an equal number of pieces at the beginning of a game is a commie pinko socialist idea straight out of Marx's book.

Players should be given pieces based on how much they play, so for example if Kasparov wanted to play chess today he should start the game with only the king (he's retired and doesn't play chess anymore, so any "gear" he got would now be 5 tiers behind if this were an MMO), meanwhile a guy let's call him Mr. Smith, who religiously attends every local tournament (and gets his *** handed to him at every one of them) should start with 5 queens 10 rooks and so on.

So, if Mr. Smith and Kasparov were to play chess, by your "logic", then Mr. Smith would win AND THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE CUS MR. SMITH IS OBVIOUSLY BETTER AT CHESS! Wooooo!

Should be the same with everything. High jump? People who attend more competitions should jump off a crate or something, after all they should have some reward for attending competitions. Sprint? Make everyone run different distances, based on how many competitions they attended last year. Boxing? Give the attender more points at the beginning of the match. After all, he's obviously a better fighter. If he were to meet a thug in the dark alley he could totally show him all those certificates from all the comps he attended and the thug would be totally beaten by this very act.

SystemProcess's Avatar


SystemProcess
04.17.2013 , 03:26 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Lelvannia View Post
OMG BalphoWan, I agree completely. In fact I think your rule should apply to every competition human beings engage in, not just MMOs. Let's take chess for example. Obviously the current system is broken, giving every player an equal number of pieces at the beginning of a game is a commie pinko socialist idea straight out of Marx's book.

Players should be given pieces based on how much they play, so for example if Kasparov wanted to play chess today he should start the game with only the king (he's retired and doesn't play chess anymore, so any "gear" he got would now be 5 tiers behind if this were an MMO), meanwhile a guy let's call him Mr. Smith, who religiously attends every local tournament (and gets his *** handed to him at every one of them) should start with 5 queens 10 rooks and so on.

So, if Mr. Smith and Kasparov were to play chess, by your "logic", then Mr. Smith would win AND THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE CUS MR. SMITH IS OBVIOUSLY BETTER AT CHESS! Wooooo!

Should be the same with everything. High jump? People who attend more competitions should jump off a crate or something, after all they should have some reward for attending competitions. Sprint? Make everyone run different distances, based on how many competitions they attended last year. Boxing? Give the attender more points at the beginning of the match. After all, he's obviously a better fighter. If he were to meet a thug in the dark alley he could totally show him all those certificates from all the comps he attended and the thug would be totally beaten by this very act.
While you were attempting to sound smart and funny, I do believe you missed his point.
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