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Why should I feel bad about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why should I feel bad about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's?

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
04.17.2013 , 11:35 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by BalphoWan View Post
But that gear had to be earned. It was given away.
Looking at the numbers on level 55 bracket, unless I'm missing something, my 28K HP with Partisan gear sure looks better than the guys in 24K HP. I've no idea what they're wearing (maybe they didn't get the memo naked PvP no longer works), but it sure looks worse than what I got. The gear still gives you an advantage. It's just not like the old day where you win 1on2 and thank your EWH gear, WZ adrenal, and WZ medpack for having your back because it sure wasn't your skill that was responsible for winning.

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 11:39 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Looking at the numbers on level 55 bracket, unless I'm missing something, my 28K HP with Partisan gear sure looks better than the guys in 24K HP. I've no idea what they're wearing (maybe they didn't get the memo naked PvP no longer works), but it sure looks worse than what I got. The gear still gives you an advantage. It's just not like the old day where you win 1on2 and thank your EWH gear, WZ adrenal, and WZ medpack for having your back because it sure wasn't your skill that was responsible for winning.
I think too many people like to separate skill and gear when, more often than not, the two likely coincide. You claim that the gear and the medpacs, and not a player's skill, would enable him to be victorious in your example. But a skilled PVP player prepares in advance for the WZ, i.e., gears up and brings whatever he can to get an edge. I think separating skill and gear is an oversimiplification of the debate, because the two are really never independent of one another. Most geared PVP players are skilled, because it is hard to get that gear without acquiring skill along the way. I cannot think of one geared out PVP player that I have run into that was not also skilled at PVP.

[EDIT] Well... maybe one or two.

Ossos's Avatar


Ossos
04.17.2013 , 12:01 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by BalphoWan View Post
I think too many people like to separate skill and gear when, more often than not, the two likely coincide. You claim that the gear and the medpacs, and not a player's skill, would come out on top in your example. But a skilled PVP player prepares in advance for the WZ, i.e., gears up and brings whatever he can to get an edge. I think separating skill and gear is an oversimiplification of the debate, because the two are really never independent of one another. Most geared PVP players are skilled, because it is hard to get that gear without acquiring skill along the way. I cannot think of one geared out PVP player that I have unr into that was not also skilled at PVP.
See, but that's just what has had so many people upset this last week. Sure all of the PvP gear broke, but who cares, there's a new xpac and with it a higher tier of gear...and new carrot to chase.

However, what did happen was that players (new, returning, and continuous alike) had a chance to strip all barriers, all advantages and disadvantages alike; simply go at PvP. What happened was that people who have ran the hamster wheel, received their carrot (gear) found out that for all of their effort, for all of their time spent PvPing...they really weren't very good.

What we saw were experienced level 50 PvPers, taking advantage of the naked bug and PvE stat bonuses (due to the bugged bolster mechanic) fighting in WZs and getting their butts handed to them by level 30 something players. Even experienced PvPers who weren't 55 yet (between 50 and 54) were getting destroyed by players who were in their 30s and 40s. Why was this possible? Because for all of their boasting, the seasoned PvPers actually sucked at PvP.

Surely this wasn't true for all of the seasoned PvPers, but for a vast number of these players it was.

Now lets take a look at what you said. Something about skilled PvPers taking every advantage (gear/pots, etc.). Well, that's just it isn't it. You're definition of a skilled player is someone who looks to get an edge through external means. Others would disagree and say that ALL things being equal, the player that continously WINS is the more skilled player. Right there with that disagreement is where the hang-up is, it's assumed that players that constantly win get the best gear and that gear is a symbol of their success. It isn't. Gear in this game has only one gate and that gate is time invested, not success.

SWTOR PvP is not like the early itterations of WoW Arenas where you actually had to WIN to get better gear. It's not like LoL, or Starcraft where you had to WIN to receive status in world competition (surely you had to put in the time, but you also had to win...putting in the time just supported one's learning curve).

I see where you mentioned that "... is hard to get that gear without acquiring skill along the way." and I understand that. However, it is an assumption that as of VERY recently has been proven false. PvP vets have been getting destroyed by lower level players (new players/re-rolls/alts) quite often. Factoring into all of their losses is complacency. They have had really good gear for a long time and have had plenty of noobs to beat up. Well, you don't get better and ANYTHING when you have people who aren't as good as you are to play against, you typically get worse. This is what has happened to many players.

So, should you feel bad about squashing a fresh 55? Not at all, it comes with the territory and the way the game is designed. What you should do is question your success. Sure, the new guy was easy, how are you doing against someone else with equal gear? How do you know whether or not you both suck? You have no way of figuring it out until the next xpac and the next levelling of the playing field.

So to take anything away from this remember that unless you and another player are on equal footing, you'll never know how skilled you are other than to say that "When all things were equal I could/couldn't beat that guy that time." Most geared PvPers over the last week or so have found themselves saying couldn't. Which tells you how worthwhile their time in the hamster wheel has been.
Preventing Hackers and Exploiters from ruining the game is not a priority. Preventing you from mentioning the fact that they exist and go unpunished is.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
04.17.2013 , 12:09 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by BalphoWan View Post
I think too many people like to separate skill and gear when, more often than not, the two likely coincide. You claim that the gear and the medpacs, and not a player's skill, would enable him to be victorious in your example. But a skilled PVP player prepares in advance for the WZ, i.e., gears up and brings whatever he can to get an edge. I think separating skill and gear is an oversimiplification of the debate, because the two are really never independent of one another. Most geared PVP players are skilled, because it is hard to get that gear without acquiring skill along the way. I cannot think of one geared out PVP player that I have run into that was not also skilled at PVP.

[EDIT] Well... maybe one or two.
Gear is not skill. If you hand a guy 10 million credits (for augments) and 5 stacks of WZ adrenal/medpack that guy can use them nearly as well as the best player, as with this much resources you'd just use medpack the moment you fall below 65%. Usually the guys who lack skill also lacks resources but to equate the two as equivalent is essentially saying if I buy credits with money then I now have skills, because credits can most definitely get the items I mentioned above if you got enough of it.

Usually the guys with the gear must have some skill but people attribute way too much of their victory to skill over gear. WZ adrenal/medpack is absolutely game changing and the only thing holding you back on them is the amount of your resources you have. In fact the skill in using them mostly comes from the fact that they're fairly time consuming to get even for fairly hardcore players so you can't just waste them. If someone just hands me 5 stacks of each I'd just be chugging them down the first moment where it makes sense to.

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 12:13 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Ossos View Post
See, but that's just what has had so many people upset this last week. Sure all of the PvP gear broke, but who cares, there's a new xpac and with it a higher tier of gear...and new carrot to chase.

However, what did happen was that players (new, returning, and continuous alike) had a chance to strip all barriers, all advantages and disadvantages alike; simply go at PvP. What happened was that people who have ran the hamster wheel, received their carrot (gear) found out that for all of their effort, for all of their time spent PvPing...they really weren't very good.

What we saw were experienced level 50 PvPers, taking advantage of the naked bug and PvE stat bonuses (due to the bugged bolster mechanic) fighting in WZs and getting their butts handed to them by level 30 something players. Even experienced PvPers who weren't 55 yet (between 50 and 54) were getting destroyed by players who were in their 30s and 40s. Why was this possible? Because for all of their boasting, the seasoned PvPers actually sucked at PvP.

Surely this wasn't true for all of the seasoned PvPers, but for a vast number of these players it was.

Now lets take a look at what you said. Something about skilled PvPers taking every advantage (gear/pots, etc.). Well, that's just it isn't it. You're definition of a skilled player is someone who looks to get an edge through external means. Others would disagree and say that ALL things being equal, the player that continously WINS is the more skilled player. Right there with that disagreement is where the hang-up is, it's assumed that players that constantly win get the best gear and that gear is a symbol of their success. It isn't. Gear in this game has only one gate and that gate is time invested, not success.

SWTOR PvP is not like the early itterations of WoW Arenas where you actually had to WIN to get better gear. It's not like LoL, or Starcraft where you had to WIN to receive status in world competition (surely you had to put in the time, but you also had to win...putting in the time just supported one's learning curve).

I see where you mentioned that "... is hard to get that gear without acquiring skill along the way." and I understand that. However, it is an assumption that as of VERY recently has been proven false. PvP vets have been getting destroyed by lower level players (new players/re-rolls/alts) quite often. Factoring into all of their losses is complacency. They have had really good gear for a long time and have had plenty of noobs to beat up. Well, you don't get better and ANYTHING when you have people who aren't as good as you are to play against, you typically get worse. This is what has happened to many players.

So, should you feel bad about squashing a fresh 55? Not at all, it comes with the territory and the way the game is designed. What you should do is question your success. Sure, the new guy was easy, how are you doing against someone else with equal gear? How do you know whether or not you both suck? You have no way of figuring it out until the next xpac and the next levelling of the playing field.

So to take anything away from this remember that unless you and another player are on equal footing, you'll never know how skilled you are other than to say that "When all things were equal I could/couldn't beat that guy that time." Most geared PvPers over the list time have found themselves saying couldn't. Which tells you how worthwhile their time in the hamster wheel has been.
I get what you are saying, but I think you are making far too many assumptions. I can't say what has been happening to other PVP vets, becuase I don't know. I can say that it has been a mixed bag for me. I am back at the bottom of the PVP gear chase, and I have gotten facerolled alot, but most of those that facerolled me were skilled and had good gear. I was occasionally able to put down a few with good gear, and they may be the vets you are talking about. But like I said in my last reply, I think you are oversimplifying skill and gear, and the interplay between the two. I just don't think you are giving alot of the PVP vets in this game enough credit. I know a few guidlies who are doing okay in PVP without the gear, and it's because of their skill. I like to think I am one of those players.

You are correct in that all it takes is time invested to get the gear. And you are correct in that some players get the gear without acquiring skill along the way. But I THINK that is the vast minority of geared PVP players. And unlike you, I am not willing to state that as a fact, becuase I don't have proof. I just have my own experiences and guildies to go by. Quite a few of them began PVP with me for the first time. And they all became skilled along the way. Like I said before, I would be willing to bet, but not definitively state, that the acquisition of gear and skill in PVP go hand in hand more often than not.

But I don't want to stray too far from my OP, which is that there is no shame in enjoying facerolling a fresh 55, whether it be from skill or gear. Either way, you took the time to earn the skill and/or the gear.

VigDiath's Avatar


VigDiath
04.17.2013 , 12:22 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by BalphoWan View Post
There is definitely a balance that has to be struck. I get that. In fact, that is the reason I stayed away from PVP in MMO's for so long. The learning curve was too frustrating for me. So I definitely understand that the gear gap needed to be softened. I just still think it should be significant. I guess everyone has their opinions about what that gap needs to be. My point was that there should not be such a negative stigma about BIS gear PVP players wanting to dominate fresh level 55's. That shouldn't have to be a naughty little secret. I would be willing to bet that alot of PVP players enjoy doing that more than they would admit. And they should. For many, that's the point of taking the time to gear up.
But why? Wouldn't it feel better to go against people equally geared/skilled as yourself so that when you do come out on top you know that you ARE the better player. I never understood that in life or in games.

Why go after the easy target? Why not go after the harder target and feel better rewarded because you actually accomplished something other than picking on the weak, so to speak.

Either way, I'm ok with starting off being the guy being beat on because of my bad gear and turning it around once I get better gear. Really, I think people should know that until you get better at this game, or any game, you can expect to be stomped if you are in bad gear. If you have Bis gear after and still suck then you know it's not the gear and it's you instead.
Jedi Covenant (The Baltimore Legacy)
Laaron - 55 (Shadow Tank) Eulora - 55 (Sage Healer)
Madmartygan - 55 (Guardian DPS) Skylaadawn - 55 (Sab Smug)
Akon - 55 (Carnage Marauder) L'aron - 53 (Sorc Healer)

Kirtastropohe's Avatar


Kirtastropohe
04.17.2013 , 12:28 PM | #17
The issue is they've implemented a system that absolutely has screwed the pootch. Whichever way you llke PVP, can anyone really say this 2.0 is working properly? Of course not. If they're going to change the dynamic of PVP to the extent they have, they darn well should have taken their time and gotten it right.

I guess they are hedging their bets and assuming that they will have far more "new" players who will like the handouts they've been given than established players who will leave based on what's going on. I think that's a serious miscalculation, but heck, miscalculation is apparently what they do best.

I'm sorry to be so callous about it, cause I know people are working hard at their jobs and in a very profession in which to please people, but what's gone on off late is beyond acceptable and I'm sick of it.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
04.17.2013 , 12:32 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by VigDiath View Post
But why? Wouldn't it feel better to go against people equally geared/skilled as yourself so that when you do come out on top you know that you ARE the better player. I never understood that in life or in games.

Why go after the easy target? Why not go after the harder target and feel better rewarded because you actually accomplished something other than picking on the weak, so to speak.

Either way, I'm ok with starting off being the guy being beat on because of my bad gear and turning it around once I get better gear. Really, I think people should know that until you get better at this game, or any game, you can expect to be stomped if you are in bad gear. If you have Bis gear after and still suck then you know it's not the gear and it's you instead.
Because if the fights are actually on even ground then the average person is going to lose 50% of the time.

I remember seeing a saying like 'on average our guys are above average' somewhere. Everyone thinks they're above the average but obviously that cannot be the case. With the Bolster change I see the premades on the opposing side losing far more than before, and since people on my side still can't seem to figure out that leaving nobody to defend a node is a bad idea, unless those premades that rolled us before suddenly got a lot worse, it's pretty clear that gear was indeed responsible for a signficant portion of their dominance.

bglodt's Avatar


bglodt
04.17.2013 , 12:32 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Kirtastropohe View Post
You shouldn't feel bad. You took your lumps getting there, and didn't whine, complain and stomp your feet like has apparently been done until we got the great, wonderful, perfectly balanced and calculated, makes everyone happy 2.0. Or as I like to call it, "Great misadventures in Soclalism or how I learned that it's wrong to actually have to earn something."

If someone is going to quit as a new player or new 50 because they somehow aren't on par or near par to those who earned their stripes, well, that type of player is going to quit anyway over something. It is pathetic, sad, and suicidal to the longevity of the game to design a system that punishes those who will grind their gear and earn it, in fact, mocks them for their efforts, so as to help those who haven't gotten the gear.

It is ridiculous that it even got off the drawing board, much less implemented to production once the numerous problems were mentioned on PTS.


This post has some glaring errors in it. When I started at launch... We started equally. And as time went on the gap got bigger. I didn't even realize how big it was till I rolled an Alt and was like wt*. It is not fun, or fair, to have new pvp players thrown into a match with not just a skill discrepancy but a a huge gear gap. I'm taking about a gap so large that regardless of your skill level you can't overcome it. I experienced that as well when I had to leave for a month or two for work...

You want no bolster, fine. Make it so that if your gear is above a certain level you can only que with similarly geared players. I guarantee you'll be on here in 1 week complaining of how long the que times are... While the "lower gear people" will be on here talking about how great pvp is now.

You earn your stripes by playing matches, not by getting better gear and beating on people who don't have a chance. I found no amusement in that. Awesome... There's the same poor kid trying to play the game.... 3-4 GCD later he's dead... Yea for me. That was hard. I pushed 4 buttons and burned through all his def cooldowns, I'm awesome. I beat this new kid... Who had 16k health. I'm the man. I'm so good at pvp.

Seriously? and btw, if you don't live at home with your parents or in a dorm, and have a career and a family you can't play 3 hours a day to get the best gear in a week. Does that mean you soul don't be able to play or contribute to pvp? I bet the majority of the subscribers fall into this group. BW is a business they need and should continue to cater to the majority of their clientele, not the overly vocal minority, who have egos to stroke.
Zenick Bladeborne, 50 Vanguard, Tranquility, JC
Zenfor Bladeborne, 50 Jedi Sentinel, Tranquility, JC

I play the vaunted 31/31/31 spec... It's not that good though.

Kirtastropohe's Avatar


Kirtastropohe
04.17.2013 , 12:34 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by VigDiath View Post
Why go after the easy target? Why not go after the harder target and feel better rewarded because you actually accomplished something other than picking on the weak, so to speak.

Either way, I'm ok with starting off being the guy being beat on because of my bad gear and turning it around once I get better gear. Really, I think people should know that until you get better at this game, or any game, you can expect to be stomped if you are in bad gear. If you have Bis gear after and still suck then you know it's not the gear and it's you instead.
I think all these people championing the supposed "skill beats all" argument are the ones actually enjoying picking on the weak. They weren't able to quite dominate as much against the lesser skilled, but well geared masses, but now they can. If skill is as apparently rare as everyone is saying, then they have designed a system that now unfairly rewards the skilled/punishes the unskilled much more than the old system ever rewarded the supposedly unskilled players with good gear.

In fact, it's worse. Before, anyone could eliminate the advantage simply by grinding out the gear. Now, the only people who can max their capabilities in the WZ are the mad scientists who know how to mix and match (or which mod slots to empty) in this crazy, bastardized system we now have. That sound like something a casual, or "non-skilled" player is going ot be able to do?

I'm not sure how this isn't clear to everyone.