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Why should I feel bad about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why should I feel bad about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's?

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 10:25 AM | #1
I have been going through the forums the last couple of days listening to all the flaming and the QQing about bolster and the removal of expertise from E/WH gear. I have read alot of posts in favor of the new bolster system. Those posts usually praise the attempt to eliminate the gap between a fully BIS geared PVP player and a fresh 55 with little to no PVP gear. Many of those that have taken that position often flame PVP players for wanting to roflstomp fresh level 55 players. I find myself feeling ashamed that I enjoy doing that. And this has started to bother me.

I came into 2.0 with half WH and half EWH gear. I am at valor rank 70. I took my licks to get there like everyone else. I have played MMO's for years, and this is the first one that I have played PVP. I have always been predominantly a PVE player (and still am). When I finally decided to jump head first into PVP, it was VERY frustrating. But with every WZ it got more and more fun, and I started to get an edge. Eventually, three of my guildies and I started to really be able to "dominate" in about 80% of the WZ's we entered. It was really fun! But more importantly, it was earned.

Now, I LOVE an evenly matched WZ. But, as a PVE player,my first love is the gear hunt. Without a juicy carrot hanging in front of my face, I get bored easily. It is that aspect of MMO's to which I have always been drawn. I guess that is why I was never bothered with the gap between fresh 50's and full EWH 50's prior to 2.0. There was that huge carrot of wanting to get the gear that would enable me to dominate like all of those players who facerolled me when I first started playing WZ's.

An now to my point. Why do I have to feel ashamed about that??? Is there honor in facerolling a noob with no PVP gear? No. But it does make you feel like the gear you took the time to earn means something; like it is powerful. And I don't feel like that is something I should have to hide. I have NEVER sought out lesser skilled/geared players. I have NEVER griefed another player in open world PVP. All I am saying is that I enjoy defeating lesser skilled/geared players sometimes when they actively and willingly engage me in combat. So...

MY NAME IS BALPHOWAN. I PLAY PVP. AND I LIKE TO FACEROLL NOOBS SOMETIMES.

[EDIT] I regret using the word "faceroll" in the title of this thread; I am choosing not to change it, but wanted to note that it established a tone in my OP that was unintended. If I were to change the tiitle, it would read "Why should I feel bad about taking advantage of the gear disparity in PVP?"

Capt_Beers's Avatar


Capt_Beers
04.17.2013 , 10:37 AM | #2
I can appreciate that.

The problem though with a gear gap in PvP is if a new player comes in and plays a few rounds and just get rolled, they may get frustrated and they might not come back. I get the gear progression part too. Ideally I would like to see gear progression just mean customization of tertiary stats like crit, surge and power.

A suggestion I made to make gear progression and a smaller gear gap was to change how items are treated in WZ's. Basically the way I think bolster should work is to give everyone in a WZ equal main stat, end. and exp. The gear progression would be from buying mods that have tertiary stats like power crit and surge on them. They would also have exp. but the exp would only function as a flag.

In this system top tier PvE gear would only have the base crit and surge (+ talents/set bonuses + whatever crit you get from the main stat). PvP players would have their PvP mods that increase their other stats. So PvP players would have a clear advantage but it wouldn't be huge. Plus by making the mods the deciding factor in stats it would make it easier to tweak. It would much easier to change the values on the mods than it is to rework the current bolster system.
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BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 10:43 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Capt_Beers View Post
I can appreciate that.

The problem though with a gear gap in PvP is if a new player comes in and plays a few rounds and just get rolled, they may get frustrated and they might not come back. I get the gear progression part too. Ideally I would like to see gear progression just mean customization of tertiary stats like crit, surge and power.

A suggestion I made to make gear progression and a smaller gear gap was to change how items are treated in WZ's. Basically the way I think bolster should work is to give everyone in a WZ equal main stat, end. and exp. The gear progression would be from buying mods that have tertiary stats like power crit and surge on them. They would also have exp. but the exp would only function as a flag.

In this system top tier PvE gear would only have the base crit and surge (+ talents/set bonuses + whatever crit you get from the main stat). PvP players would have their PvP mods that increase their other stats. So PvP players would have a clear advantage but it wouldn't be huge. Plus by making the mods the deciding factor in stats it would make it easier to tweak. It would much easier to change the values on the mods than it is to rework the current bolster system.
There is definitely a balance that has to be struck. I get that. In fact, that is the reason I stayed away from PVP in MMO's for so long. The learning curve was too frustrating for me. So I definitely understand that the gear gap needed to be softened. I just still think it should be significant. I guess everyone has their opinions about what that gap needs to be. My point was that there should not be such a negative stigma about BIS gear PVP players wanting to dominate fresh level 55's. That shouldn't have to be a naughty little secret. I would be willing to bet that alot of PVP players enjoy doing that more than they would admit. And they should. For many, that's the point of taking the time to gear up.

ChicagoBearsFan's Avatar


ChicagoBearsFan
04.17.2013 , 11:16 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by BalphoWan View Post
When I finally decided to jump head first into PVP, it was VERY frustrating.
...
Now, I LOVE an evenly matched WZ. But, as a PVE player,my first love is the gear hunt.
...
Is there honor in facerolling a noob with no PVP gear? No. But it does make you feel like the gear you took the time to earn means something; like it is powerful.
The first of your comments I highlighted essentially answers this. The frustration that new players were experiencing was becoming detrimental to PVP as a whole. It was not frustration form L2P, learning curve, etc. It was from "unfair competitive advantage". Most matches were simply won before they were begun due to a gear advantage of one team over another. I have never played any PVP game that had given such an unfair advantage simply from gear.

We all like winning so it IS fun to stomp on others competitively sometimes. But is it really that you out played them?
Which brings me to your 2nd comment. If you like a competitive match then you should be a fan of the bolster system as it has produced some of the most competitive matches that I have seen. The fact that a new can come in and BE COMPETITIVE is good for PVP. It means we "veterans" cant rely on our "earned" gear but rather we are going to have to out play them. Maybe some might find out they are not as good as they thought they were when hiding behind a significant gear advantage.

I play PVP for the fun of putting my skill up against other players, not to play STAR WARS Barbie doll dress up. I agree it is fun to have something to work towards and it is fun to be "rewarded" with new gear. Was it fun to cut through opponents like butter and mop the floor with the other team? Sure it is at times. But if there is no real chance in loosing, there is no real thrill in victory! Something had to be done to bring the competitive balance back to PVP.

Should you feel "ashamed" for stomping noobs? Eh... Who knows.
But I for one gladly trade my gear advantage to compete on a more equal playing field.

Remember it is a game, frustrated new players who are not having fun means SWTOR dies a premature death.
So maybe in the end we have more to gain by balanced competition than we do flaunting our gear and rubbing noobs faces in the dirt.
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Capt_Beers's Avatar


Capt_Beers
04.17.2013 , 11:17 AM | #5
I get it. I like to roll over teams once in a while too. But there's is a big difference between rolling over someone because they don't know what they are doing and because they never even had a chance due to gear. Personally for me if I'm with my guild or a bunch of PUG's that way out gear the other team it's no fun. I'm a healer and if that happens no one takes any damage so I'm basically standing around not doing much.

A strong argument could be made either way. 1) I earned my gear so therefore I should have an advantage over those that didn't and 2) If the gear advantage is too big people will stop playing. I'm reserving judgement on this whole situation until bolster is sorted out and the devs confirm that yes, this is how we want it to work.
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Kirtastropohe's Avatar


Kirtastropohe
04.17.2013 , 11:20 AM | #6
You shouldn't feel bad. You took your lumps getting there, and didn't whine, complain and stomp your feet like has apparently been done until we got the great, wonderful, perfectly balanced and calculated, makes everyone happy 2.0. Or as I like to call it, "Great misadventures in Soclalism or how I learned that it's wrong to actually have to earn something."

If someone is going to quit as a new player or new 50 because they somehow aren't on par or near par to those who earned their stripes, well, that type of player is going to quit anyway over something. It is pathetic, sad, and suicidal to the longevity of the game to design a system that punishes those who will grind their gear and earn it, in fact, mocks them for their efforts, so as to help those who haven't gotten the gear.

It is ridiculous that it even got off the drawing board, much less implemented to production once the numerous problems were mentioned on PTS.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
04.17.2013 , 11:21 AM | #7
I remember back in EQ1 people told me I'm awesome tank and I always told them you should thank my gear for being awesome because I can do most of this stuff while totally AFK. It seems like that's the preferred method of playing for most people in PvP though. People want to thank their gear for being awesome as opposed to themselves for being awesome.

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 11:26 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by ChicagoBearsFan View Post
The first of your comments I highlighted essentially answers this. The frustration that new players were experiencing was becoming detrimental to PVP as a whole. It was not frustration form L2P, learning curve, etc. It was from "unfair competitive advantage". Most matches were simply won before they were begun due to a gear advantage of one team over another. I have never played any PVP game that had given such an unfair advantage simply from gear.

We all like winning so it IS fun to stomp on others competitively sometimes. But is it really that you out played them?
Which brings me to your 2nd comment. If you like a competitive match then you should be a fan of the bolster system as it has produced some of the most competitive matches that I have seen. The fact that a new can come in and BE COMPETITIVE is good for PVP. It means we "veterans" cant rely on our "earned" gear but rather we are going to have to out play them. Maybe some might find out they are not as good as they thought they were when hiding behind a significant gear advantage.

I play PVP for the fun of putting my skill up against other players, not to play STAR WARS Barbie doll dress up. I agree it is fun to have something to work towards and it is fun to be "rewarded" with new gear. Was it fun to cut through opponents like butter and mop the floor with the other team? Sure it is at times. But if there is no real chance in loosing, there is no real thrill in victory! Something had to be done to bring the competitive balance back to PVP.

Should you feel "ashamed" for stomping noobs? Eh... Who knows.
But I for one gladly trade my gear advantage to compete on a more equal playing field.

Remember it is a game, frustrated new players who are not having fun means SWTOR dies a premature death.
So maybe in the end we have more to gain by balanced competition than we do flaunting our gear and rubbing noobs faces in the dirt.
It's like i said in my second post, I get that there needs to be a balance. And I really do enjoy a compettive WZ. To be honest, I like a mix. Sometimes I love a long WZ that goes down to the wire. The victory feels that much better. But I also like to be reminded that the gear I earned has placed me above the new players who haven't invested the time. At the same time, I also don't want to discourage those players from coming back. On one of the forums, someone threw out hypotheitcal statistics stating that the gear gap pre 2.0 was like 70%, and now, with the new bolster system, is around 20%. I guess i feel like I would rather it be a little higher, around 40% (to use theose hypothetical statistics as an analogy). Just my opinion. Because, remember, you can always take the time to close that gap.

BalphoWan's Avatar


BalphoWan
04.17.2013 , 11:28 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
I remember back in EQ1 people told me I'm awesome tank and I always told them you should thank my gear for being awesome because I can do most of this stuff while totally AFK. It seems like that's the preferred method of playing for most people in PvP though. People want to thank their gear for being awesome as opposed to themselves for being awesome.
But that gear had to be earned. It was given away.

KeeperOfSajuuk's Avatar


KeeperOfSajuuk
04.17.2013 , 11:29 AM | #10
I'm just back (three weeks or so) from a long vacation from this game. I left with a 50 Sage and 50 trooper with whatever the PvP gear was called at the time (Battlemaster, Champion?) and it was fun, but stale.

Now I'm back with a level 55 Juggernaut that I just levelled since I returned. Once I hit 55, I noticed that with 2 pieces of Partisan gear and mostly BH gear, I get my face rolled, nearly every WZ. It's still fun, and I plan to continue trying to get a full set of Part gear, but I can see why it would be frustrating to a new 55, in greens.

The people I'm up against, usually have a full set of Part gear, with a few Conq pieces thrown in, and they DESTROY us without a challenge. Is that what you wanted to do, when you set out to obtain the best PvP gear? Make WZs so easy that they aren't a challenge? I, personally won't QQ about the way that it was. I enjoyed PvP before I left.

I still think the gear gap is pretty substantial, regardless of what Devs are saying (that it's down to 20%, from 75%)

Just my 2c
"...what an incomprehensible machine is man! Who can endure toil, famine, stripes, imprisonment & death itself in vindication of his own liberty, and the next moment ... inflict on his fellow men a bondage, one hour of which is fraught with more misery than ages of that which he rose in rebellion to oppose." -Thomas Jefferson