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Overall Tanking Comparison

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Overall Tanking Comparison

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
12.02.2012 , 05:29 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by kanare View Post
- Vanguards have the best passive mitigation used to -> look at the numbers now gardians are bettern now .....
- Shadows have the highest active mitigation. --> lol no they dont never have .....not factering in every thing......
- Vanguards have the best damage smoothing. --> fully geared gardians aren now better .......... Fact number's prove this.....
- Guardians have more mobility than Vanguards but less kiting ability. Shadows have the most mobility when there aren't leap targets. plz explain how they have more mobilitie ? seeing vangards , have the leap , and range aoe taunt ?? and shadows dont beacuse alot of fights now need u to swap targets , for example tanks + dread counsil .....
- Guardians have the most control. 2 stuns, AoE mezz and snare. Leap -> Push -> leap isn't quite as good as pull but it gets the job done. lets put this in relitive turms controle whys , in raids is very limited more so in 16 man , vangards and shadows still have pull and all we have is gardian leap ......
- Snap threat I'd give to the Guardian followed by VG. Shadows lack a resource boost ability while Guardian and VG can really burst out of the gates if they want to.[/ --> sry i realy hope you are jokeing here , snap threat ever you have never played with people good at there classes or never seen a threat meatrer , Shadows opening threat is around 3--4 X a gardians , but even out when in there rotation , vangardss are around 50% higher opening threat .......... inless u have stacked str , and power to insane amounts that damage your mitigations out of curiosity what content have u done and what guild are u from ????
I think you are confusing mean mitigation and passive mitigation. You're making the same confusion with damage smoothing. You also seem to have no idea what active mitigation is.

Passive mitigation means mitigation that is active if I just stand there and do nothing. For a Vanguard, that's everything except 5% damage debuff and 8% absorb. For a Guardian, that's everything except 5% accuracy, 3% Defence and Blade Barrier. For a Shadow, that excludes Kinetic Ward, 5% Accuracy Debuff, 5% Damage Debuff and all self healing.

Active mitigation is almost the opposite of the above. Shadows have 4 things to manage, Guardians 2 and Vanguards 2.

Damage smoothing isn't a measure of incoming damage, its a measure of how much it varies. Vanguards have the highest passive K/E resistance massive Shield/Absorb. This combines to make them the smoothest tank.

Mobility. This one amuses me, because you are saying that the Vanguard has more mobility and you quote Storm. Guardians get Leap, which is reset by Push and Guardian Leap. Under ideal circumstances I can cover ~75m in 4 GCD (Guardian leap 30m, Force Leap 30m, Push and Leap to pushed target ~15m). More often in a raid I'm covering 50m in 2 GCD to get up to Vorgath quickly or I'm Guardian leaping to our Hunkered Down 'Slinger after Gift of the Masters. Take away my leap targets and the Shadow wins, as I said.

Control isn't just about positioning. Keep in mind, anything a VG can pull, a Guardian can mezz, stun and push or a Shadow could Mind Trap. Yes it takes a Guardian longer to position a mob but once on target they have more control over the fight.

Snap threat is a measure of how much threat you can put out in a short window. There are 2 times this can be gauged: at the start of a fight (static start) or in the middle of a fight (active start). With a static start, everything is off CD and resources are full (or empty). A VG can blow his wad, hit Recharge Cells and keep going, a Guardian can blow his wad, hit Combat Focus and keep going, a Shadow blows hit wad and sits there waiting for regen. Shadows my have more threat overall, but Guardian and Vanguard have much more burst (or snap) threat ability.

On my Guardian I can pull 2.4k - 2.7k threat over the first 20 seconds and I can hold off (or pull off) our Vanguard and Shadow tanks. I may use a Power adrenal to reach those numbers but it works and I have other CDs to use until my armor adrenal comes off CD. I know there are Shadow out there than can reach or beat those numbers without using an adrenal, but its good enough to hold off our DPS and my offtanks.

Now active start snap threat is even WORSE for the Shadow because they have less resource than they do at the start. Guardian can pop Combat Focus and blow his wad again and the Vanguard can just hit everything until he drops too low on energy and recharge. All that said: taunt makes "snap threat" in the middle of a fight irrelevant.

EDIT: I've cleared HM EC and we're working on HM TFB. We only started on HM EC a few weeks before 1.4 hit so we were still farming main hands until last week. If you want info about my guild or server, look down.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

kanare's Avatar


kanare
12.02.2012 , 07:01 PM | #22
Passive mitigation means mitigation that is active if I just stand there and do nothing. For a Vanguard, that's everything except 5% damage debuff and 8% absorb. For a Guardian, that's everything except 5% accuracy, 3% Defence and Blade Barrier. For a Shadow, that excludes Kinetic Ward, 5% Accuracy Debuff, 5% Damage Debuff and all self healing.
u are missing internal damage and external damage resitance , witch have been buffed for gardiains as well witch
makes them better ............ 20% less ............ no confustion sry to tell u espeshaly when u take amour nurths in to acount that shadows have had.
Passive mitigation: = base stats amour ratting, internal external damage so on ......... you are curently not looking at the hole picture. as well as that your level of gear if it is pre, 63,'s i would understand more , why u think this is the case there has been a big big big shift !!!!!!!!!!! and is a even bigger shift when it comes to 16 man and 8 mans....... i would love for you to come on mumble and have a chat with me if u are still up i will go though them with u.....

Active mitigation is almost the opposite of the above. Shadows have 4 things to manage, Guardians 2 and Vanguards 2.
active mitigation , gardians, blade barrior is one of the most over powered ability (stacks with gear !!!!!!) there it takes in to acount accaruacy reducation blacde barrior witch now stops over 2k damage now , witch is huge , but also i am taking in to acount how the class works , with the timeings for each of the abilities ..........if u wish me to go in to more detail feel free to come mumble and have a chat with me ,

Damage smoothing isn't a measure of incoming damage, its a measure of how much it varies. Vanguards have the highest passive K/E resistance massive Shield/Absorb. This combines to make them the smoothest tank.

Your ashuming that all damage is sheildable , defenderble and absorbable im not going to lie most damage is not any more this means that these stats have changed , i would agree gardians would not be the smoothest if this was not the case how ever the game has changed we have to change with it ........also you ashuming 8 man content , witch is very difrent to 16 man witch u will see the true smoth ness of all the classes also take blade barrior in to acount, and other factors , witch if used at the right time in fights can keep you very easy to heal, out of cruousity , what are your cruent tank stats could be why you have this problem and think they are not......

Mobility. This one amuses me, because you are saying that the Vanguard has more mobility and you quote Storm. Guardians get Leap, which is reset by Push and Guardian Leap. Under ideal circumstances I can cover ~75m in 4 GCD (Guardian leap 30m, Force Leap 30m, Push and Leap to pushed target ~15m). More often in a raid I'm covering 50m in 2 GCD to get up to Vorgath quickly or I'm Guardian leaping to our Hunkered Down 'Slinger after Gift of the Masters. Take away my leap targets and the Shadow wins, as I said.
==> well this 1 i was actully thinking of not putting in i dont realy care about mobility beacuse that is more about the player then the class itself , but mobility can also be judged on doing things on the move ............. so will hapily consede points on this i actully think it has no refrence to being able to the tank or chosing a tank beacuse good players will find ways round it .........

"Snap threat is a measure of how much threat you can put out in a short window. There are 2 times this can be gauged: at the start of a fight (static start) or in the middle of a fight (active start). With a static start, everything is off CD and resources are full (or empty). A VG can blow his wad, hit Recharge Cells and keep going, a Guardian can blow his wad, hit Combat Focus and keep going, a Shadow blows hit wad and sits there waiting for regen. Shadows my have more threat overall, but Guardian and Vanguard have much more burst (or snap) threat ability."

"On my Guardian I can pull 2.4k - 2.7k threat over the first 20 seconds and I can hold off (or pull off) our Vanguard and Shadow tanks. I may use a Power adrenal to reach those numbers but it works and I have other CDs to use until my armor adrenal comes off CD. I know there are Shadow out there than can reach or beat those numbers without using an adrenal, but its good enough to hold off our DPS and my offtanks."

ok colley over the first 20 seconds of the fight is hitting 5-8 k threat , dependet on fight tanks , he hit 7k i think while a group of 4x sentinals with no gards on them were nuking with adreanls + insp x 4 do i need to say more ?
our old vangard tank was hitting 4k at start of fight ?
I a gardian can hit around 3k when using every thing how ever top dps , can spike upwards of 3 k (but again subject to fight) so lets put this in simple numbers

gardian in a good fight start 3k (using adrenals)
vangard over 4k
shadow double 5-8k , trust me we cant tuch shadows ........ tanks are desighned very well 1 mitigation tank , 1 middel of the middel tank and 1 tps tank.
i am ashumeing players are compitent , and play at the best posible standered ........

"Now active start snap threat is even WORSE for the Shadow because they have less resource than they do at the start. Guardian can pop Combat Focus and blow his wad again and the Vanguard can just hit everything until he drops too low on energy and recharge. All that said: taunt makes "snap threat" in the middle of a fight irrelevant.
As stated Taunt makes snap threagt ,"

but its all relitive if you do your tanunt on u doing 2.7k tps for 5 seconds the top end of your threat ........ or a shadow tants after doing 5 k for 5 secs , do the maths , trust me we cant keep up with them also by the end of the first 30 seconds of the fight threat is not a problem due to how taunts work .......

EDIT: I've cleared HM EC and we're working on HM TFB. We only started on HM EC a few weeks before 1.4 hit so we were still farming main hands until last week. If you want info about my guild or server, look down.[/QUOTE]

Ok , i have Cleared all content but NIM kethis 16 man witch no 1 has done in the world ..... all world firsts ,
we roll with some of the best tanks around pushing our classes to the limits , you sir atm are big fish in a small pond is the best analigy i can say , you are a good gardian , in a guild who is not very strong (dont mean to be rude or affensive plz dont take it like that) , i am curently playing with some of the best of the best players , taking world firsts ...... the problem is if u do not have good tanks u have no point of refrence ,

plz come and have chat with me on mumble though get it downloaded , and i wil pm u the info , would love to give u some extra info to try and e xplain better to you i hate typeing !!!!!

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
12.02.2012 , 07:36 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by kanare View Post
u are missing internal damage and external damage resitance , witch have been buffed for gardiains as well witch
makes them better ............ 20% less ............ no confustion sry to tell u espeshaly when u take amour nurths in to acount that shadows have had.
Passive mitigation: = base stats amour ratting, internal external damage so on ......... you are curently not looking at the hole picture. as well as that your level of gear if it is pre, 63,'s i would understand more , why u think this is the case there has been a big big big shift !!!!!!!!!!! and is a even bigger shift when it comes to 16 man and 8 mans....... i would love for you to come on mumble and have a chat with me if u are still up i will go though them with u.....
Int/Ele resist by Class:
Shadow - 23%
Guardian - 20%
Vanguard - 19%

There is a 1%(!) difference in I/E resist between a Guardian and a Vanguard. The difference between K/E resistance on these 2 is much higher than 1%. Its important to note that in current content most damage is K/E, TFB has more I/E than EC but it is still mostly K/E.

Quote: Originally Posted by kanare View Post
active mitigation , gardians, blade barrior is one of the most over powered ability (stacks with gear !!!!!!) there it takes in to acount accaruacy reducation blacde barrior witch now stops over 2k damage now , witch is huge , but also i am taking in to acount how the class works , with the timeings for each of the abilities ..........if u wish me to go in to more detail feel free to come mumble and have a chat with me ,
Blade Barrier contributes less to Guardian survivability than the Shadow self-heal contributes to Shadow survivability. Hybrid Guardians (which you claim is an inferior spec) benefit MORE from Blade Barrier but it still does not surpass the Shadow self-heal. Check out KeyboardNinja's work if you really want to understand.

Quote: Originally Posted by kanare View Post
Your ashuming that all damage is sheildable , defenderble and absorbable im not going to lie most damage is not any more this means that these stats have changed , i would agree gardians would not be the smoothest if this was not the case how ever the game has changed we have to change with it ........also you ashuming 8 man content , witch is very difrent to 16 man witch u will see the true smoth ness of all the classes also take blade barrior in to acount, and other factors , witch if used at the right time in fights can keep you very easy to heal, out of cruousity , what are your cruent tank stats could be why you have this problem and think they are not......
I am not making that assumption at all. I am opting to ignore the scenarios of I/E damage, where Shadows shine, because you cannot gear for that. Damage smoothing is about keeping the variation in damage taken as low as possible. In other words, its the opposite of Spiky. Shadows require the least healing but have the spikiest damage profile, Vanguard require the most but have the smoothest of the tanks. Technically, DPS/Heal classes have the "smoothest" damage because it is always constant, no defending or shielding. It's also an unbearably high volume of damage and the healers can't deal with it, but it doesn't stop it being the smoothest.


Quote: Originally Posted by kanare View Post
==> well this 1 i was actully thinking of not putting in i dont realy care about mobility beacuse that is more about the player then the class itself , but mobility can also be judged on doing things on the move ............. so will hapily consede points on this i actully think it has no refrence to being able to the tank or chosing a tank beacuse good players will find ways round it .........
Starting to see reason.

Quote: Originally Posted by kanare View Post
ok colley over the first 20 seconds of the fight is hitting 5-8 k threat , dependet on fight tanks , he hit 7k i think while a group of 4x sentinals with no gards on them were nuking with adreanls + insp x 4 do i need to say more ?
our old vangard tank was hitting 4k at start of fight ?
I a gardian can hit around 3k when using every thing how ever top dps , can spike upwards of 3 k (but again subject to fight) so lets put this in simple numbers

gardian in a good fight start 3k (using adrenals)
vangard over 4k
shadow double 5-8k , trust me we cant tuch shadows ........ tanks are desighned very well 1 mitigation tank , 1 middel of the middel tank and 1 tps tank.
i am ashumeing players are compitent , and play at the best posible standered ........
I call BS. I only measure my TPS at the 20 and 30 second marks. The later you measure it, the higher you TPS will be because of taunt boosting. You want some real useful information, I hit 58,000 TPS on Nightmare Pilgrim last night. In a 14 second parse. Because I was on the Dog until the end then I picked up the Pilgrim. You want to parse reasonable and comparable TPS, do it without taunt or else state the duration of your parse.

Quote: Originally Posted by kanare View Post
but its all relitive if you do your tanunt on u doing 2.7k tps for 5 seconds the top end of your threat ........ or a shadow tants after doing 5 k for 5 secs , do the maths , trust me we cant keep up with them also by the end of the first 30 seconds of the fight threat is not a problem due to how taunts work .......
Actually its relative to the volume of threat on the target, regardless of if its yours or not. Anyway, unless your DPS are pushing 2.5k DPS, TPS isn't an issue as long as you can hold it between taunts.

Quote: Originally Posted by kanare View Post
Ok , i have Cleared all content but NIM kethis 16 man witch no 1 has done in the world ..... all world firsts ,
we roll with some of the best tanks around pushing our classes to the limits , you sir atm are big fish in a small pond is the best analigy i can say , you are a good gardian , in a guild who is not very strong (dont mean to be rude or affensive plz dont take it like that) , i am curently playing with some of the best of the best players , taking world firsts ...... the problem is if u do not have good tanks u have no point of refrence ,

plz come and have chat with me on mumble though get it downloaded , and i wil pm u the info , would love to give u some extra info to try and e xplain better to you i hate typeing !!!!!
And I'm really Santa Claus and you're on the naughty list now. We can all make claims on the internet without evidence.

Anyway, I don't care about World Firsts in a game. I play to have fun and hang with my mates. I like to optimize my character and clear content, but I'm not going to spend 2 days working on a fight just to be the first one. 3 months from now is anyone going to care that you may have a world first clear of EC NiM 16 man?

In terms of Mumble, I'm at work and we're in different time zones, I doubt I'll catch you on there. Feel free to keep replying though.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

kanare's Avatar


kanare
12.03.2012 , 05:44 AM | #24
Shadow - 23%
Guardian - 20% + 5 =25 % due to spec = 25% "" and base amour is exackly the same prity much for vangaurds and gardians ""
Vanguard - 19%

Its important to note that in current content most damage is K/E, TFB has more I/E than EC but it is still mostly K/E

. you can defintly tell u have not cleared TFB !!!!! and not even stepped foot in 8 man NIM let alone 16 man with that responce when u catch up u can corect your self


Blade Barrier contributes less to Guardian survivability than the Shadow self-heal contributes to Shadow survivability. Hybrid Guardians (which you claim is an inferior spec) benefit MORE from Blade Barrier but it still does not surpass the Shadow self-heal. Check out KeyboardNinja's work if you really want to understand.

lol i should not coment on this due to how healers work shaows in theory have a amazing abiltiy but how much do u think is wated on over heal some thing that gardians dont have a problem with so if u take that in to acount makes blade barrior more usefull + better ....... it was worked out in tfb gardians take some thing like 8% less damage over all then all classes ..... i will try and find the data for u ..... self-heal is important for shadows but when u make every thing relitive , to gear , spec and amour rateing the damage mitigations on blade storm makes it so over powered when you have over 7% more amour takeing your base damage reduction to over 50% .............blade barrior can mitergate complete hits on u in 8 man ...... and tbh just by editing shadows gear for difrent encounters, u can say o my god , they have amazings shadow self heal witch is again relitive to there total hp pool witch is only usefull in 2 fights, rest of the time they drop right down on hp to around 28k , for more sheild and absorb stats witch in turn nerfs there self heal ..........


I am not making that assumption at all. I am opting to ignore the scenarios of I/E damage, where Shadows shine, because you cannot gear for that. Damage smoothing is about keeping the variation in damage taken as low as possible. In other words, its the opposite of Spiky. Shadows require the least healing but have the spikiest damage profile, Vanguard require the most but have the smoothest of the tanks. Technically, DPS/Heal classes have the "smoothest" damage because it is always constant, no defending or shielding. It's also an unbearably high volume of damage and the healers can't deal with it, but it doesn't stop it being the smoothest.


ofc u can gear for that its nieve to think u cant gear at all to counter that there is things u can do as gardian to help this out , im gardian its my job to make shore thats is easyer to heal as a tank it is your job to understand the fights when the damage is coming and how the damage is coming and compinsate for it .........gardians are now every smooth to heal that is if they have created the right gearing , to go with there spec .............


I call BS. I only measure my TPS at the 20 and 30 second marks. The later you measure it, the higher you TPS will be because of taunt boosting. You want some real useful information, I hit 58,000 TPS on Nightmare Pilgrim last night. In a 14 second parse. Because I was on the Dog until the end then I picked up the Pilgrim. You want to parse reasonable and comparable TPS, do it without taunt or else state the duration of your parse.

i have re gone over the numbers of last raid colley was hitting over 4k tps at start of fight thats 1 u have to inturpt at the start , and ofc its relivent our dps nukes from the start , thats means in the first 5-10 seconds they will be .useing dps adreanals and inspperations , witch in tern means that are sitting at around 3.5k tps espeshaly with 4 insps in 1 group for the start ......... shadows are very very over powered when it comes to threat ..... so what your saying is im wrong cus u have never seen it , or dps cant do that cus have never seen it does not mean any thing its like saying u dont exist cus i have never seen you its a chilish responce ......

Actually its relative to the volume of threat on the target, regardless of if its yours or not. Anyway, unless your DPS are pushing 2.5k DPS, TPS isn't an issue as long as you can hold it between taunts.

no **** shirlock ,but what if u were on nim tanks o my bad u have never been there so would not know ........ what i mean by this u do not switch targets , meaning thats a shadow whos ential threat is higher , would have higher threat for the first taunt and from that will build threat quicker contuiealsy till the 35 second mark where threat becomes obserleat due to the tautn macanic



And I'm really Santa Claus and you're on the naughty list now. We can all make claims on the internet without evidence.

i have everdence more then your littel encounters in to ec hm witch has been 6 manned , and tfb hm witch is a joke ..... cleared by alts in a week of coming out ..... Nim content is the first chalange in the game ........ when u get there or when actully step in 16 man , that hardest content in the game --> next you will tell me you have gear that has accuracy on and its realy realy important ""

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
12.03.2012 , 10:28 PM | #25
I give up. I'd expect someone who is claiming world firsts to want to better themselves and listen rather than banging their head into the ground. Apparently not. Have fun with your misinformation.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

Hugzs's Avatar


Hugzs
04.16.2013 , 06:29 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
I give up. I'd expect someone who is claiming world firsts to want to better themselves and listen rather than banging their head into the ground. Apparently not. Have fun with your misinformation.
As a new vanguard with slight aspirations towards tanking all of your information was very well put (whether or not it is true, it was clear, well argued and presented quite nicely even for a newbie like myself).

There was definitely more info than i needed but it was interesting none the less and I'm guessing outdated as even i can see the tanking changes with the most recent skill tree and skill changes will really add to certain flaws of the VG I myself found.

Oops but none the less after the 3rd post of the person that you were arguing with, I stopped reading his/her posts and not just because his English was making me cry (don't give me 'it's not my first language defence' there's a freaking spellchecker built into most browsers); but because his overall attitude and demeanor reflects that he is unwilling to consider not being correct himself and due to that will miss out on opportunities to better understand or improve himself (I'm not so esoteric as to relate this to real life as everyone acts differently over the internet as the iron wall of anonymity protects us all).

Rant over and thankyou again for the info

Rugi's Avatar


Rugi
04.16.2013 , 09:26 PM | #27
Yay necro!

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Jossajus
04.17.2013 , 12:09 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Rugi View Post
Yay necro!
Its..... ALIVE!!!!
"When you're happy, you enjoy the music. When you're sad, you understand the lyrics." - Frank Ocean

Hugzs's Avatar


Hugzs
04.17.2013 , 05:59 AM | #29
If more people played and less people trolled maybe there wouldn't be such a need to revive the dead