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lol bolster

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EricMusco's Avatar


EricMusco
04.09.2013 , 04:34 PM | #451 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Hey everyone!

I was able to spend a bit of time today talking to Rob Hinkle and Alex Modny about the PvP changes and although they are busy right now working on getting solutions to some of these issues, I wanted to pass on some explanations on what is going on.

What is the purpose of “naked” bolster? So I want to clarify why Naked Bolster exists. For Bolster we need to have a system that impacts Warzone players from level 10 to level 55. To do this we want to make sure characters are on as even a playing field as possible. However, when you were leveling up your main, when did you get your first helmet, implant, or relic? In the level up game we have certain points where characters have not yet received certain items and we don’t want to punish these characters because they don’t have access to certain items while higher level characters have plentiful access, so they both get bolstered up to the same level to create a more equal playing field.

Ex: We want to make sure your level 11 without a helmet is getting some stats for their head slot to be equal to the level 25 with a helmet.

With that being said, we do not intend for naked Bolster to be better than wearing gear of any type. This is a bug with the system that we are adamant on fixing and attempted to fix on PTS. The truth is that when we fixed one aspect of the system we opened up another edge case. Last night when it became apparent we had not done enough to fix the issue we started an investigation (yes at 3am CDT in the morning) and have been working all day on a plan of attack to shore up this system so that it is fun and balanced for all parties.

More specifically the issues we have discovered are how the Bolster system handles Relics and diminishing returns. Currently on live, Bolster is giving too many stats to the Relic slot, meaning if you don’t use a Relic (naked Bolster) you will get more stats than the Relic itself would give. Actually different stats entirely since most Relics have Endurance and a proc effect. This means that taking off Relics will give you more primary damage stat and secondary stats and you will probably lose Endurance. How Bolster looks at Relic slots needs to be redone so that stats it assumes are present or should be present are more in-line with Relics that are present and we are working on that currently.

The other issue we found in our investigation is that Bolster’s diminishing returns are too generous and giving out too many stats over the course of a set. Our item system uses a diminishing returns formula on each individual stat on a mod, so that putting more and more of a stat on a single mod costs more “item budget.” The Bolster system follows the same formulas, but because it gives more frequent smaller values that are added together, each stat takes a less harsh diminishing returns hit. Taken over the course of an entire set, the result is that a fully Bolstered character tends to have gained some small values in each stat and rating over actual items. To fix this we need to massage some numbers to make diminishing returns affect Bolster stat gains more drastically.

It is important to note that “naked Bolster” is never intended to be better than wearing gear, this is a bug and is going to be fixed.

How does this affect level 55? Bolster will bolster characters up to right below Partisan gear, the new level 55 PvP set gear. This is working correctly from what we can see and means that the Elder Game will not have this issue of “naked Bolster.” Partisan and Conquer gear are still highly valuable and give better stats than Bolster so that max level PvP should be intact as we designed, it is just unfortunate that the system has bugs in it that make getting to that point frustrating.

Because of the bolster changes and general changes to 2.0 combat math you will see larger numbers during combat. We have given out more health with levels which means more damage to counter it. Also, in 2.0 the gear gap has been closed significantly. In pre-2.0 the gap was roughly (very roughly!) 80% difference between Recruit and fully augmented Elite War Hero gear. Closing this gap means that PvP battles will be on a more equal footing but you might be experiencing damage and heal numbers you hadn’t seen before the patch.

Hopefully this post has addressed some of your concerns about the current state of PvP following Game Update 2.0. Again, naked Bolster being as strong as it is right now is a bug and is not intended design. We have outlined above what our current plan is for addressing it but this is always subject to change. I will do my best to keep you all updated on how and when these changes will happen. Thank you all for your questions and feedback.

-eric
Eric Musco | Community Manager
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Criosdh's Avatar


Criosdh
04.09.2013 , 04:34 PM | #452
Quote: Originally Posted by BatmanBinSuprman View Post
The whole point of bolster is to make it even for everybody.. What? Did you want to go back and bash on undergeared people and feel good about yourself?

Interesting seeing alot of blind/incompetent people thinking they're good in pvp when the game itself caters towards people with BiS gear against those with no gear.

Not saying you're blind or incompetent personally but seriously.. if you thought the pvp was fair to begin with.......


............... lol.
^^^ This.

Soxbadger's Avatar


Soxbadger
04.09.2013 , 04:44 PM | #453
Thanks for the response Eric!

I cant speak for everyone but I understand that with releases there are going to be some unintended consequences that may not be fully vetted until it goes live.

Thanks again.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
04.09.2013 , 04:45 PM | #454
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post

The other issue we found in our investigation is that Bolster’s diminishing returns are too generous and giving out too many stats over the course of a set. Our item system uses a diminishing returns formula on each individual stat on a mod, so that putting more and more of a stat on a single mod costs more “item budget.” The Bolster system follows the same formulas, but because it gives more frequent smaller values that are added together, each stat takes a less harsh diminishing returns hit. Taken over the course of an entire set, the result is that a fully Bolstered character tends to have gained some small values in each stat and rating over actual items. To fix this we need to massage some numbers to make diminishing returns affect Bolster stat gains more drastically.

It is important to note that “naked Bolster” is never intended to be better than wearing gear, this is a bug and is going to be fixed.
here's an idea: reapply the OLD, imperfect bolster system and take this crap back to PTS where you can...you know...FIX IT.

as for ppl whining about old bolster: what do you want? you're playing against toons with 20+ more levels of abils. there's no way any sort of "bolster" can reasonably compensate for that. however, it was possible to rectify your dirth of abils by maxing gear. NOW, you go up against someone who has painstakingly max'd his gear, and you stomp him...because you're naked? lol great.

I guess this means I'm out of pvp for a week cuz I can't level until the 15th. then it's about another week to hit 55 just so I don't have to get 2-shot by a 31 in greens. just reset the bolster until you figure out what you're doing. please.
A legacy of meh
Krackerjäck/Krackerjak (VG/PT) | Krackerjack/Deinon (Mando/Merc) | Deìnon (Jugg) | other stuffs
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

Quidibit's Avatar


Quidibit
04.09.2013 , 04:50 PM | #455
That's a good post Eric, thx for the update. I guess that explains why removing earpiece/implants/relics gave me better stats than full (pve) gear. Although naked was worse overall for me when considering set bonus and such.

This was my data if it helps (50 merc, rakata aim stim, 9% aim talent, 5% health buff).


A) Full pve gear (mostly rakata, all augmented, none of the gear had expertise),
B) earpiece+implants+relics removed,
C) all gear but blasters removed

=

Aim: A) 2380, B) 2562, C) 2329
Health: A) 23086, B) 24136, C)24222
Total secondary stats: A) 1452, B) 1445, C) 1453
Armour: A) 5666, B) 5666, C) 5602
Expertise: A) 1961, B) 1985, C) 1990

Boch's Avatar


Boch
04.09.2013 , 04:51 PM | #456
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
here's an idea: reapply the OLD, imperfect bolster system and take this crap back to PTS where you can...you know...FIX IT.

as for ppl whining about old bolster: what do you want? you're playing against toons with 20+ more levels of abils. there's no way any sort of "bolster" can reasonably compensate for that. however, it was possible to rectify your dirth of abils by maxing gear. NOW, you go up against someone who has painstakingly max'd his gear, and you stomp him...because you're naked? lol great.

I guess this means I'm out of pvp for a week cuz I can't level until the 15th. then it's about another week to hit 55 just so I don't have to get 2-shot by a 31 in greens. just reset the bolster until you figure out what you're doing. please.
Its a new expansion and all 50 PvP gear is phased out. Minus the few bugs mentioned low level PvP is balanced stat wise, as long as you don't wear phased out gear. And this system is way better than having to fight twinks in low level PvP. At 55 PvP gear is still the best. Let your old gear go, it will be OK.
Konts of <Ascension>
Rolling with a pocket guard since 2.0.

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
04.09.2013 , 04:57 PM | #457
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey everyone!

I was able to spend a bit of time today talking to Rob Hinkle and Alex Modny about the PvP changes and although they are busy right now working on getting solutions to some of these issues, I wanted to pass on some explanations on what is going on.

What is the purpose of “naked” bolster? So I want to clarify why Naked Bolster exists. For Bolster we need to have a system that impacts Warzone players from level 10 to level 55. To do this we want to make sure characters are on as even a playing field as possible. However, when you were leveling up your main, when did you get your first helmet, implant, or relic? In the level up game we have certain points where characters have not yet received certain items and we don’t want to punish these characters because they don’t have access to certain items while higher level characters have plentiful access, so they both get bolstered up to the same level to create a more equal playing field.

Ex: We want to make sure your level 11 without a helmet is getting some stats for their head slot to be equal to the level 25 with a helmet.

With that being said, we do not intend for naked Bolster to be better than wearing gear of any type. This is a bug with the system that we are adamant on fixing and attempted to fix on PTS. The truth is that when we fixed one aspect of the system we opened up another edge case. Last night when it became apparent we had not done enough to fix the issue we started an investigation (yes at 3am CDT in the morning) and have been working all day on a plan of attack to shore up this system so that it is fun and balanced for all parties.

More specifically the issues we have discovered are how the Bolster system handles Relics and diminishing returns. Currently on live, Bolster is giving too many stats to the Relic slot, meaning if you don’t use a Relic (naked Bolster) you will get more stats than the Relic itself would give. Actually different stats entirely since most Relics have Endurance and a proc effect. This means that taking off Relics will give you more primary damage stat and secondary stats and you will probably lose Endurance. How Bolster looks at Relic slots needs to be redone so that stats it assumes are present or should be present are more in-line with Relics that are present and we are working on that currently.

The other issue we found in our investigation is that Bolster’s diminishing returns are too generous and giving out too many stats over the course of a set. Our item system uses a diminishing returns formula on each individual stat on a mod, so that putting more and more of a stat on a single mod costs more “item budget.” The Bolster system follows the same formulas, but because it gives more frequent smaller values that are added together, each stat takes a less harsh diminishing returns hit. Taken over the course of an entire set, the result is that a fully Bolstered character tends to have gained some small values in each stat and rating over actual items. To fix this we need to massage some numbers to make diminishing returns affect Bolster stat gains more drastically.

It is important to note that “naked Bolster” is never intended to be better than wearing gear, this is a bug and is going to be fixed.

How does this affect level 55? Bolster will bolster characters up to right below Partisan gear, the new level 55 PvP set gear. This is working correctly from what we can see and means that the Elder Game will not have this issue of “naked Bolster.” Partisan and Conquer gear are still highly valuable and give better stats than Bolster so that max level PvP should be intact as we designed, it is just unfortunate that the system has bugs in it that make getting to that point frustrating.

Because of the bolster changes and general changes to 2.0 combat math you will see larger numbers during combat. We have given out more health with levels which means more damage to counter it. Also, in 2.0 the gear gap has been closed significantly. In pre-2.0 the gap was roughly (very roughly!) 80% difference between Recruit and fully augmented Elite War Hero gear. Closing this gap means that PvP battles will be on a more equal footing but you might be experiencing damage and heal numbers you hadn’t seen before the patch.

Hopefully this post has addressed some of your concerns about the current state of PvP following Game Update 2.0. Again, naked Bolster being as strong as it is right now is a bug and is not intended design. We have outlined above what our current plan is for addressing it but this is always subject to change. I will do my best to keep you all updated on how and when these changes will happen. Thank you all for your questions and feedback.

-eric
awesome eric, thanks for the update. godspeed in getting everything sorted

oh, and i finally got that video of my level 40 commando owning face uploaded!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1M3VFNzi9w
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

ezrafetch's Avatar


ezrafetch
04.09.2013 , 04:58 PM | #458
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
here's an idea: reapply the OLD, imperfect bolster system and take this crap back to PTS where you can...you know...FIX IT.

as for ppl whining about old bolster: what do you want? you're playing against toons with 20+ more levels of abils. there's no way any sort of "bolster" can reasonably compensate for that. however, it was possible to rectify your dirth of abils by maxing gear. NOW, you go up against someone who has painstakingly max'd his gear, and you stomp him...because you're naked? lol great.

I guess this means I'm out of pvp for a week cuz I can't level until the 15th. then it's about another week to hit 55 just so I don't have to get 2-shot by a 31 in greens. just reset the bolster until you figure out what you're doing. please.
Except the tiny problem of 30-54 brackets, meaning that everyone 50+ runs around with 1600+ Expertise. The old bolster didn't include Expertise. You'd have 50+s one-shotting 30-49s because they didn't have access to (E)WH gear.

I agree that Bolster is currently borked/bugged, but going back to the old one while they fix the current problems is an even worse choice than rolling it out bugged and fixing it ASAP. And I do think the Expertise thing needs to be re-examined some, 2-shots or 3-shots do not make for a healthy PvP metagame.
Parrobus Dinastzhen
Old Republic Dads, Shadowlands

DarthOvertone's Avatar


DarthOvertone
04.09.2013 , 04:58 PM | #459
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post

How does this affect level 55? Bolster will bolster characters up to right below Partisan gear, the new level 55 PvP set gear. This is working correctly from what we can see and means that the Elder Game will not have this issue of “naked Bolster.” Partisan and Conquer gear are still highly valuable and give better stats than Bolster so that max level PvP should be intact as we designed, it is just unfortunate that the system has bugs in it that make getting to that point frustrating.
We shall see won't we. The last iteration of Bolster in the 55 bracket on PTS had a toon performing better without Relics slotted. Based on the information in your post, it doesn't sound to me like that issue from the PTS has been resolved yet so I seriously doubt that the 55 bracket won't suffer from similar shenanigans to what we are experiencing now on live.

However, it is interesting to hear that all of the Comms we are collecting may end up being worth something at 55. However, if Bolster is active in Rated WZs, then it really doesn't matter much since any exploits/holes in the mechanic will certainly show up there.

If I could do anything, I would once again implore Rob and Alex to remove Bolster from RWZs. Keep the layer of PvP gear progression and min/maxing relevant by making Rated Bolster-free, at least until the mechanic is completely stable in Regz. It would also buy you guys some time to create and provide us with some real endgame PvP content.

Anyway, thanks for trying Eric.
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Conqueror Alphazen - Shadow | Battlemaster Alphawood - Guardian | War Hero Alphanoob - PT
Jung Ma | Conqueror Alphabond - Sniper | Conqueror Alphamaul - Marauder | Battlemaster Alphafett - Mercenary
SWTOR 3.0: All Hail Maintenance Mode PvP!!

SomeJagoff's Avatar


SomeJagoff
04.09.2013 , 04:58 PM | #460
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
How does this affect level 55? Bolster will bolster characters up to right below Partisan gear, the new level 55 PvP set gear. This is working correctly from what we can see and means that the Elder Game will not have this issue of “naked Bolster.” Partisan and Conquer gear are still highly valuable and give better stats than Bolster so that max level PvP should be intact as we designed, it is just unfortunate that the system has bugs in it that make getting to that point frustrating.
okay....as long as naked, bis pve, and wh/ewh gear isn't as good as the lower tier of the 2 new tiers of pvp gear, then cool. There will be a reason to grind the gear, Wear the gear. Lowbie pvp is a joke, but as long as endgame pvp is cool, don't care if naked is the new twink.

Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
[B]Because of the bolster changes and general changes to 2.0 combat math you will see larger numbers during combat. We have given out more health with levels which means more damage to counter it. Also, in 2.0 the gear gap has been closed significantly. In pre-2.0 the gap was roughly (very roughly!) 80% difference between Recruit and fully augmented Elite War Hero gear. Closing this gap means that PvP battles will be on a more equal footing but you might be experiencing damage and heal numbers you hadn’t seen before the patch.
To be honest, this is a little concerning, I've been doing 7k backstabs on my operative and 8k mauls on my assassin. I realize that healthpools are greater now, but not by much, so I'm not sure if this is a good change or not. I'm also now taking 7k smashes on my assassin while in tank spec, thanks to the armor nerf. Though, I do have considerably more hp on my assassin...I'm somehow getting 32k hp....another one of those buggy high hp specs maybe? <=/

In any case, I am really amazed that you somehow continued to test this bolster effect internally....yet didn't bother to check either of the 2 lowbie brackets which obviously still have the naked pvp bug. I'm a little more relieved to hear that PVP at lvl 55 is (hopefully) working properly without any weird pve/naked statting higher than actual pvp gear

Still though, you had 3 months to test this, tons of complaints pertaining to this very issue, and you even boasted that you "quashed" this bug no less. Yet, it still goes live in this state. I understand needing to meet deadlines and then hotfixing stuff as needed, but this is a Very Severe oversight. This has basically broken pvp for everyone from level 10 to 54. It may be great for those who already hit 55 through some kind of exploits (another Serious bug that somehow slipped past your "internal metrics"), but for the rest of us, we're stuck with a pretty miserable play experience.

For people who exclusively pvp, they now basically have the choice of playing a ton of joke pvp matches or just playing another game. As a business, that's something you should strongly consider, because you obviously haven't considered that at all.
Once you're in the hole, what's a few more feet?