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Ranking PVE DPS


Uvirith's Avatar


Uvirith
03.15.2013 , 02:57 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by jasonthelamb View Post
2400 sustained on Firebrand and Stormcaller, easiest fight for a melee. My DPS probably bottoms out the dread council
lie

/10chars
Uviryth Hammerhand, Kinetic Combat-Shadow
<Founder>

VeheO's Avatar


VeheO
03.21.2013 , 10:57 AM | #22
This topic has way to many assumptions made. First being that sent/mara has to run with watchman/anni which is just silly. Current fights more often than not favour front-loaded burst than sustained (WHorror, Dread Guard from Asation and for example Firebrand & Stormcaller have high uptime so in those fights indeed sustained matters more but on other fights like Operator, TFB, or I dunno, even Kephess in Asation not so much anymore). Second is you completly dismiss what makes vig JG unique and valuable which is his dispatch phase and can be very useful in bosses with burn phases. I'm not extremly faimiliar with other specs in OPS enviroment so I'll refrain from commenting but I guess almost anyone could input something here.

You look at DPSes from dummy perspective in which case your ranking holds true but outside of it in OPS it looks different that's why I would take most of things in this topic with a grain of salt.

JimmyTheCannon's Avatar


JimmyTheCannon
03.21.2013 , 06:43 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by VeheO View Post
This topic has way to many assumptions made. First being that sent/mara has to run with watchman/anni which is just silly. Current fights more often than not favour front-loaded burst than sustained (WHorror, Dread Guard from Asation and for example Firebrand & Stormcaller have high uptime so in those fights indeed sustained matters more but on other fights like Operator, TFB, or I dunno, even Kephess in Asation not so much anymore). Second is you completly dismiss what makes vig JG unique and valuable which is his dispatch phase and can be very useful in bosses with burn phases. I'm not extremly faimiliar with other specs in OPS enviroment so I'll refrain from commenting but I guess almost anyone could input something here.

You look at DPSes from dummy perspective in which case your ranking holds true but outside of it in OPS it looks different that's why I would take most of things in this topic with a grain of salt.
There are several classes that get a DPS boost below 30%, not just Vigilance Guardians. Look at Pyro PT/Merc or any class with an execute (Snipers/Gunslingers, Sentinels/Marauders).

Sprgmr's Avatar


Sprgmr
03.23.2013 , 12:16 AM | #24
I'd have to counter that if you play well and smart, you can keep Merciless/Annihilator stacks up fairly well.

Vorgath: I feel the droids have enough health that it becomes a sustained fight.
EC Kephess: When fighting Kephess sure, more than likely lose stacks. Before fighting Kephess go 3 droids-bomber-walker-adds-bomber-droids (order might be wrong, but you get the picture)
WHorror: Go from boss to male/adds.
Dread Guard: Only in HM could you lose stacks because of the extra mechanics/switching needed.
Operator IX: ya, this is pretty easy to lose on, especially when you're actually fighting him. Not to say it couldn't be done, it'd just require some finer management.
Asation Kephess: Yea, I'd probably give that one to you. I haven't run him in a while on my Sent, so I'll have to really try keeping it up next time.
TFB: I feel Tentacles are same as Vorgath Droids. After that the only real time it'll drop would be when you have to destroy the spawns around the platforms.

Basically, if you know that there is going to be a switch/pause, use Merciless Strike/Annihilation as close to that switch (end of current combat) as possible. By that I mean, try and make Merciless Strike/Annihilator you killing blow (or damn close). With the even lower CD in 2.0 it'll probably be easier (full disclosure, I haven't run and don't know fights of S&V).

Quote: Originally Posted by VeheO View Post
This topic has way to many assumptions made. First being that sent/mara has to run with watchman/anni which is just silly. Current fights more often than not favour front-loaded burst than sustained (WHorror, Dread Guard from Asation and for example Firebrand & Stormcaller have high uptime so in those fights indeed sustained matters more but on other fights like Operator, TFB, or I dunno, even Kephess in Asation not so much anymore). Second is you completly dismiss what makes vig JG unique and valuable which is his dispatch phase and can be very useful in bosses with burn phases. I'm not extremly faimiliar with other specs in OPS enviroment so I'll refrain from commenting but I guess almost anyone could input something here.

You look at DPSes from dummy perspective in which case your ranking holds true but outside of it in OPS it looks different that's why I would take most of things in this topic with a grain of salt.

VeheO's Avatar


VeheO
03.29.2013 , 05:18 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by JimmyTheCannon View Post
There are several classes that get a DPS boost below 30%, not just Vigilance Guardians. Look at Pyro PT/Merc or any class with an execute (Snipers/Gunslingers, Sentinels/Marauders).
Aye, but not every class gets almost an auto-crit on execute move (+60% crit chance, so if you have around 35% crit chance it's almost an auto-cirt)

Quote: Originally Posted by Sprgmr View Post
I'd have to counter that if you play well and smart, you can keep Merciless/Annihilator stacks up fairly well.

Vorgath: I feel the droids have enough health that it becomes a sustained fight.
EC Kephess: When fighting Kephess sure, more than likely lose stacks. Before fighting Kephess go 3 droids-bomber-walker-adds-bomber-droids (order might be wrong, but you get the picture)
WHorror: Go from boss to male/adds.
Dread Guard: Only in HM could you lose stacks because of the extra mechanics/switching needed.
Operator IX: ya, this is pretty easy to lose on, especially when you're actually fighting him. Not to say it couldn't be done, it'd just require some finer management.
Asation Kephess: Yea, I'd probably give that one to you. I haven't run him in a while on my Sent, so I'll have to really try keeping it up next time.
TFB: I feel Tentacles are same as Vorgath Droids. After that the only real time it'll drop would be when you have to destroy the spawns around the platforms.

Basically, if you know that there is going to be a switch/pause, use Merciless Strike/Annihilation as close to that switch (end of current combat) as possible. By that I mean, try and make Merciless Strike/Annihilator you killing blow (or damn close). With the even lower CD in 2.0 it'll probably be easier (full disclosure, I haven't run and don't know fights of S&V).
I never claimed WHorror or DG Council to be not sustained, quite the contrary, I said this fights are easy to keep your stacks up and high DPS on dot classes.
TFB:
- Between the pairs of tentacles you lose stacks/dots/whatever (Nothing much, but at the same time that break does not have any punishment for burst specs like combat or sharpshooter, except for idling which everyone pretty much do)
- If you are hunting anomalies (both at 75 and 50%)
- Irregularities
That's plenty of opportunies to lose your sustained.
Kephess Asation is not really hard to keep stacks/dots up (well, unless you are hybrid gs and are tasked with hunting balls, tough luck ^^), tbh I find it to be very easy, the real difference shows up when Kephess gets "knocked down". Smart burst player will delay his burst 2 or 3 secs if that gives him a chance to squeeze it all in while Kephess is on the ground.

I am not caliming that always burst > sustained. I'm just pointing that this ranking is based on results from dummies and in OPS depending on encounter it can be very different and that lately encounters seemed to favour burst a bit more (nothing that makes sustained anything to sneeze at, mind you). One could say that you should respec according to encounter (heh, maybe even reroll). My point is, find what is your favourite, 'cause almost every DPS(poor scoundrels ) in this game has some upsides and downsides. Do not be mislead by this dummy(as in training dummy, not dummy OP) ranking.


Well, though I'm mostly not referring to main post but OP later comments. They are very biased, that's why I'm very distrustfull to all of his input. For example: Anni's shorter CD on Interrupt, that's not really very helpful, I mean if something is casted in say 1.5sec (only cast ability that I can think of now, that has to be interrupted now is Calibrating Shot in EC NiM Kephess which is casted in 1.0, oh right, there's also the shield that Ciphas cast on Heirad, but that's even less of an issue) CD will be too long either way so you have to have 2 guys interrupting it. Watchman/Anni heals? 1.5k health in total per Zen, maybe a bit usefull but nothing that really impacts an encounter, 'cause if your healers are not keeping up, that won't help.

Also if just from utility point of view, merc/sage have something that sniper/gs don't. Combat rez. Of course every healer has combat rez but sometimes when the fight takes it's toll on healers dps can pick up the poor soul that went and died.

Well, there are also quite a few fair points here. In general I'm an enemy of rankings 'cause they quite often don't show how small those differences really are.

I mean JG is very good example of that, there is no better class for burn phases but his overall DPS and utility won't show it. Frankly I have no idea why would Sin/Shadow go above JG/Jugg here speaking strictly from boss encounter point of view. On trash Sin/Shadow may be a bit more useful 'cause of CC, but no serious raider cares for trash.

Sprgmr's Avatar


Sprgmr
04.01.2013 , 01:13 PM | #26
Of course, I simply added fights you hadn't mentioned for the sake of being thorough. I argued that the tentacles and droid (in TFB and Vorgath) are so long that burst looses its edge over sustained. It's not short or long enough for either to come out ahead, so is a wash in my opinion.

I do agree that in the irregularities part of TFB you can lose sustained. As a Sent player, my perspective is on losing Merciless/Annihilator stacks. IF timed right (admittedly very hard), you can keep those stacks up, though it also depends on how fast others get them down.
Full disclosure, I fought the TFB in some time on him, so my memory of timing may be a tad off.

On the interrupt, My sent can interrupt 3 consecutive casts of Calibrating in a row (kick, well timed leap, kick) and even more if there is adequate time between casts (due to an attack or such). The 2 seconds off Kick are pretty significant when it lowers the CD from 8 to 6 seconds.

And yes, Zen isn't a huge help for the raid, but it does slowly add up (double so for the Sent/Mara). I'd argue that any help is better than nothing.
Quote: Originally Posted by VeheO View Post
/snip

namesaretough's Avatar


namesaretough
04.04.2013 , 02:17 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Sprgmr View Post

I do agree that in the irregularities part of TFB you can lose sustained. As a Sent player, my perspective is on losing Merciless/Annihilator stacks. IF timed right (admittedly very hard), you can keep those stacks up, though it also depends on how fast others get them down.
Full disclosure, I fought the TFB in some time on him, so my memory of timing may be a tad off.
Couldn't you just attack the terror itself while you're waiting for that phase to end, at least to keep the buff up?
Smugglin

JimmyTheCannon's Avatar


JimmyTheCannon
04.04.2013 , 06:04 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by namesaretough View Post
Couldn't you just attack the terror itself while you're waiting for that phase to end, at least to keep the buff up?
If you mean the first part of it - you can't get close enough to him, you die.

Second part, you should be able to, I'd think.