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dont know what yall are smoking

dracinic's Avatar


dracinic
03.13.2013 , 01:13 PM | #1
Just like the title says I dont understand how you can say the hybrid gaurdian tank is better than a 32/7/2 defense gaurdain I have tanked every content their is besides the PTS. I understand what you are saying when it comes to raw numbers that the hybrid is better but have ran both and to me the gaurdain defense build is far superior when you sit there and min max your mitigations. I will say that the hybrid needs less min maxing but when compared to a min maxed defense build I laugh. Yes the hybrid may offer more dammage but to me takes that for less survivability.

The defense gaurdian never gives me problems to me it just requires more skill to use then a hybrid. Gaurdian tanks to me just take more skill to play then any of the other tank classes.

The build that I have set up also works fine in pvp. It does not put up massive amounts of damage though but am more of a support class in pvp.



will say now please forgive me for spelling and grammer errors I know they are there just bad at grammer thank you for your time.

Slivovidze's Avatar


Slivovidze
03.15.2013 , 04:37 AM | #2
Look at the skill trees.

As a full guardian, you get 4% shield chance and 4% elemental and internal damage reduction.

As a hybrid, I get 4% all damage reduction.

That's like, the only mitigation difference between these two builds. Plus, hybrid gets Unremitting and more Blade Storm = more Blade Barrier.

I believe that if you played hybrid correctly with your perfect itemization, you would achieve better results. Of course, if you are used to Defense guardian and you play it well, there is no need to discuss hybrids, you just stay there, us hybrids will die out with 2.0 anyways.

I also don't quite see what do you find easier on hybrid, I actually find Defense easier because of all the focus generation and cost reduction...

But hey again, if you are good Defense Guardian, no one will ever force you to switch to hybrid, but you also shouldn't offend us who are good hybrids and enjoying it.

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
03.15.2013 , 09:22 AM | #3
Hybrids cannot be killed, cannot be cc'ed, and never lose threat.

end of story.

Lyrik
Lyrik - Guardian
Mogal - Jugg
Lyr - Sentinal

Crionos's Avatar


Crionos
03.25.2013 , 06:43 PM | #4
Here is a perfect example of fights with two guardian tanks.

One was full Defense the other was Hybrid.

If you still believe that Hybrid isn't stronger then you truly have no concept of tanking in harder difficulties. I average over 600DPS in Current builds in EC NiM

Check this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=521662
There are concrete numbers all from EC HM because it was the hard content at the time

Here is a link to an EC NiM Torparse
http://www.torparse.com/g/2828

Show me real numbers where a full defense guardian can outperform a hybrid in current builds. I do think that when 2.0 launches the Hybrid will be obsolete but until then this is simply put the best build period for tanking.

I hope I can help enlighten you for a few more weeks
GM The Omega Knights

Cybermeister's Avatar


Cybermeister
03.26.2013 , 07:28 AM | #5
For PvE content there is very little doubt that the 'full'* defense spec works better, or at least with more margin for over-aggroing dps. I've tried both extensively and the bane of guardians which is aggro management is much reduced in defense. That alone makes it a no-brainer for boss fights - although the hybrid spec is perhaps slightly more useful in trash clearance. Maybe.

For PvP the advantage of the hybrid spec is primarily the 4 seconds of CC immunity bestowed by Unremitting. This is obviously great for Huttball, but also in many situations where you leap to someone the knee-jerk reaction of the target is to hit their stun / knockback, which you can then laugh off. Added to that, you have the reduced CD on Awe from Commanding Awe, which also gives a temporary boost to the 4% all damage types DR up to 19% while focused defense is up - i.e. another defensive CD on a shorter timer. Obviously it's PvP-only as the de-aggro effect of FD is not something you generally want to use in PvE). The reduced CD and increased damage on bladestorm is also nice and OH Slash is a reasonable damage attack, especially if you're tanking in DPS gear.

* Full defense = either 31 point or a 27 point (you don't absolutely need guardian slash, although that's going to change in 2.0, when the hybrid tank spec is going the way of the dinosaurs from what I see).

Philmors's Avatar


Philmors
03.26.2013 , 07:51 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Cybermeister View Post
For PvE content there is very little doubt that the 'full'* defense spec works better, or at least with more margin for over-aggroing dps. I've tried both extensively and the bane of guardians which is aggro management is much reduced in defense. That alone makes it a no-brainer for boss fights - although the hybrid spec is perhaps slightly more useful in trash clearance. Maybe.

For PvP the advantage of the hybrid spec is primarily the 4 seconds of CC immunity bestowed by Unremitting. This is obviously great for Huttball, but also in many situations where you leap to someone the knee-jerk reaction of the target is to hit their stun / knockback, which you can then laugh off. Added to that, you have the reduced CD on Awe from Commanding Awe, which also gives a temporary boost to the 4% all damage types DR up to 19% while focused defense is up - i.e. another defensive CD on a shorter timer. Obviously it's PvP-only as the de-aggro effect of FD is not something you generally want to use in PvE). The reduced CD and increased damage on bladestorm is also nice and OH Slash is a reasonable damage attack, especially if you're tanking in DPS gear.

* Full defense = either 31 point or a 27 point (you don't absolutely need guardian slash, although that's going to change in 2.0, when the hybrid tank spec is going the way of the dinosaurs from what I see).
That's pretty much what I feel.

I much rather tank in full defense normally in PVE and use the hybrid spec for specific situations in PVE. When I PVP I use the hybrid spec.

Mallorik's Avatar


Mallorik
03.26.2013 , 10:54 AM | #7
In two weeks it wont matter. And it actually stopped mattering to me the minute 2.0 hit the pts and I realized there was no reason for me to be raiding until 2.0 goes live.

Crionos's Avatar


Crionos
03.29.2013 , 03:13 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Cybermeister View Post
For PvE content there is very little doubt that the 'full'* defense spec works better, or at least with more margin for over-aggroing dps. I've tried both extensively and the bane of guardians which is aggro management is much reduced in defense. That alone makes it a no-brainer for boss fights - although the hybrid spec is perhaps slightly more useful in trash clearance. Maybe.

For PvP the advantage of the hybrid spec is primarily the 4 seconds of CC immunity bestowed by Unremitting. This is obviously great for Huttball, but also in many situations where you leap to someone the knee-jerk reaction of the target is to hit their stun / knockback, which you can then laugh off. Added to that, you have the reduced CD on Awe from Commanding Awe, which also gives a temporary boost to the 4% all damage types DR up to 19% while focused defense is up - i.e. another defensive CD on a shorter timer. Obviously it's PvP-only as the de-aggro effect of FD is not something you generally want to use in PvE). The reduced CD and increased damage on bladestorm is also nice and OH Slash is a reasonable damage attack, especially if you're tanking in DPS gear.

* Full defense = either 31 point or a 27 point (you don't absolutely need guardian slash, although that's going to change in 2.0, when the hybrid tank spec is going the way of the dinosaurs from what I see).
This is just plain wrong on a variety of points. Hybrid Guardians are the highest single mob threat generation period. If you are going for Guardian Slash then you are slightly better at AoE tanking. But the damage output is so far less then a Hybrid Guardian using Overhead Slash, which is up more often, that if anything you can go defense for FP's and trash mobs and go Hybrid for Bosses where you are responsible for holding threat on one mob.

In PvP Hybrid is by far the way to go for a Guardian tank as well. Unremitting and the Immobilize are just that good. Combine that with some higher numbers and the flat 4% damage reduction to all incoming damage types and it just makes sense. Of course to each is own and everyone should play what they are comfortable with but in my honest opinion having guardian tanked on every boss in every difficulty of every instance I would never jump off the Hybrid wagon.

At least until 2.0 drops. I will be going full defense at that time with the buff to the output of guardian slash.
GM The Omega Knights

Riivan's Avatar


Riivan
03.30.2013 , 06:30 AM | #9
2.0 makes this thread unnecessary, but since it is here yet again. The DPS and threat arguments are kind of mute in a raid situation. Unless the boss threat drops, after the first 12-20ish seconds of a fight if you're losing aggro then you're not taunt boosting correctly. Also if your raid is requiring your tank DPS to down content then you need better DPSers.

Hybrid has better mitigation and better threat. The difference is minimal enough that you should just use whichever spec you want. You will not be at a disadvantage using Def over Hybrid. I choose to use full defense for more utility and ease of mind. Unremitting and 4% all dmg reduction didn't seem to outweigh the AoE threat, an extra stun in hilt strike, an extra stun in unchanneled stasis, almost instantly getting 5 rend stacks, accuracy debuff and not having to worry about focus.

Both are viable, play your preference for the next week or two. I'll stick with Defense for PvE. And yes I have tanked all the available content as well in both specs.