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Pondering rolling a Sorc


Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
03.29.2013 , 08:35 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Rugi View Post
So the double XP weekend is coming up and I am thinking of powerleveling a Sorcerer during it. My main is a Juggernaut so I'm looking to bring up a ranged toon next. Neither Merc nor Sniper appeals to me, so here I am! I just had a few questions for the community hear. How are Sorc's doing dps wise currently (Pve and pvp on live)? Are they getting any better or worse in 2.0? If Sorc is your main, what do you love most about the class?

And lastly, how is the story? I plan on going LS mostly but will probably pick up some DS points when I have to deal with the nobles on Alderaan. I'm just hoping that the LS Inquisitor story is as satisfying as the LS Warrior one, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

Thanks in advance!
Sorc DPS can be amazing in PvE, but is extremely difficult to bring to it's full potential (aka, I only know one person who can get near 2k DPS). Admittedly, I haven't worked at it, but I can only pull around 1600-1700 in min/maxed healer gear on a dummy.

PvP DPS is fairly worthless. You can top charts in damage easily by throwing DoTs on everything that moves and putting down some well placed AOEs, but don't expect to have the burst to kill anyone if there are healers about. As many 1v1 arguments as I've seen in this thread so far, you will be at your best working with another rDPS partner to have another KB, more ranged roots/snares, etc. to help you get the damage down before the opponent gets close.

The storyline was pretty meh imo, but I know many people who greatly enjoyed it. How good a story is greatly depends on the person playing and what you enjoy. Going LS will be beneficial if you plan on playing a male toon and romancing your only female option. IMO, SW story was way better.

The 2.0 crit nerf will hurt sorcs as many procs are crit reliant. Giving Polarity Shift to all sorcs will be a Madness and Corruption buff. Force Barrier should be pretty trolly for PvP if you have some teammates that might actually help you and gives you a DCD for PvE content finally. There may be some hybrid DPS options available with the added points, so there is some more freedom in your spec than other classes have.

Good Luck!
I have opinions and stuff

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
03.29.2013 , 12:30 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Kindran View Post
Dude, I am tired of arguing with you over and over about how well other classes do over us in multiple threads.

1) Again, you don't understand. If you put the survivability rate of other classes vs us with using every defensive at each class' disposal, every other class is greater than Sorcerers. If you don't get it by now, when I talk about Sorcerers' defensive CDs I am talking about kiting and not facetanking.. I am not asking for an I win button like you so claim. I am only asking for equality or compensation (as in glass cannon which is given to Lightning in 2.0)

2) Every class except Operatives and Sorcerers can pop damage reduction CDs to live and still dps(Operatives can completely escape the fight instantly). We do more damage than other classes while escaping because of DoTs? Dude, listen to yourself. DoTs have NO protection to force type purges and they do little damage, 500-600 damage crit with affliction and 400-500 damage crit with creeping terror once every 3 seconds. Other classes can do way more than that while chasing/escaping. I am also including Death Field in this.

3) Madness' root is nice with a 9sec CD, but if you have creeping terror then you only have that one single target root. Every class is susceptible to roots yes, but they do not have major problems with them like Sorcerers. This wouldn't be a problem at all if force speed had its immunity baseline as it should be.

4) You are the one who seems to not understand what diminishing returns mean. Let me enlighten you. If I am rooted, then rooted again, the second root will have its full duration still applied. As this game does not have diminishing returns at all nothing is reduced on consecutive applications. This, along with how many roots are in this game. and resolve not affecting roots, hurts Sorcerers more than any other class.

Please keep in mind that the scenarios I am talking about are team fights where both teams have a guarded healer or two. We are completely fine in 1v1 where each battle can go one way or another. If dps are not targeting a healer a dps Sorcerer is the next one in line because they are easy kills.

I have played and mained my Sorcerer since beta. No class is invincible nor perfect, but in comparison to the classes I mentioned, we are weak. Either buffs need to be applied to the lower tier classes or nerfs need to be placed on the higher tier to make things near equal. I will say this again as I had mentioned it in another thread. Compare Madness to Shadow Priest and Lightning to Elemental Shamans from WoW. The WoW counterparts both have the tools required to do well in their respected fields.
This bolded part I really agree with. Being chain rooted is the biggest current weakness of the sorcerer class. The class relies on mobility for survivability but if you can't remain mobile you are probably dead.

On a side note to actually answer the question of the thread.

If you are going to pve then I'm sure you will be happy with the sorcerer class, the damage in 2.0 looks competitive with what other classes are doing and the corruption spec looks better than before.

If you are going to pvp a lot of it depends on your personal skill at the game and the time you want to commit. The sorcerer class is completely based around kiting regardless of the spec you want to play. The actual rotations are not that difficult, but knowing how to kite each class/spec can take some time to learn which frustrates some players. Positioning also plays a large role in being successful as a sorcerer, if you don't like focusing on positioning and kiting you probably will not enjoy the class in pvp.

If I had to rate the difficulty of the specs in pvp I would say

Full Madness 6/10
Hybrid DPS 6/10
Full lightning 9/10
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
03.29.2013 , 01:41 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Kindran View Post
Dude, I am tired of arguing with you over and over about how well other classes do over us in multiple threads.

1) Again, you don't understand. If you put the survivability rate of other classes vs us with using every defensive at each class' disposal, every other class is greater than Sorcerers. If you don't get it by now, when I talk about Sorcerers' defensive CDs I am talking about kiting and not facetanking.. I am not asking for an I win button like you so claim. I am only asking for equality or compensation (as in glass cannon which is given to Lightning in 2.0)

2) Every class except Operatives and Sorcerers can pop damage reduction CDs to live and still dps(Operatives can completely escape the fight instantly). We do more damage than other classes while escaping because of DoTs? Dude, listen to yourself. DoTs have NO protection to force type purges and they do little damage, 500-600 damage crit with affliction and 400-500 damage crit with creeping terror once every 3 seconds. Other classes can do way more than that while chasing/escaping. I am also including Death Field in this.

3) Madness' root is nice with a 9sec CD, but if you have creeping terror then you only have that one single target root. Every class is susceptible to roots yes, but they do not have major problems with them like Sorcerers. This wouldn't be a problem at all if force speed had its immunity baseline as it should be.

4) You are the one who seems to not understand what diminishing returns mean. Let me enlighten you. If I am rooted, then rooted again, the second root will have its full duration still applied. As this game does not have diminishing returns at all nothing is reduced on consecutive applications. This, along with how many roots are in this game. and resolve not affecting roots, hurts Sorcerers more than any other class.

Please keep in mind that the scenarios I am talking about are team fights where both teams have a guarded healer or two. We are completely fine in 1v1 where each battle can go one way or another. If dps are not targeting a healer a dps Sorcerer is the next one in line because they are easy kills.

I have played and mained my Sorcerer since beta. No class is invincible nor perfect, but in comparison to the classes I mentioned, we are weak. Either buffs need to be applied to the lower tier classes or nerfs need to be placed on the higher tier to make things near equal. I will say this again as I had mentioned it in another thread. Compare Madness to Shadow Priest and Lightning to Elemental Shamans from WoW. The WoW counterparts both have the tools required to do well in their respected fields.
1. We get force armor and heals instead of defensive cooldowns. Now we are also getting a channeled invulnerability. If this isn't enough for you, roll another class. They aren't giving us defensive cooldowns. That simply isn't how the class is designed.

2. If you are actively trying to escape, you aren't casting heavy-hitting damage abilities no matter what class you are. Operatives can vanish, but they can't attack while cloaked. A melee running away from you can't do anything. Snipers have to leave cover, where all their best abilities are used. As for DOTs, how often do you think they actually get purged? Because I don't see it happening that much anywhere but ranked, and even then only when you are dotting a class that can self-purge. Helaers are too busy healing to worry about cleansing dots. They hit plenty hard, especially with deathmark. Affliction and Creeping Terror are two of the highest damage per cast time abilities in a Sorc's arsenal.

3. Sorcs are not somehow more susceptible to roots. I have no idea where you are getting that. If anything, roots tend to be an issue for melee classes that can't get into range to attack if they are rooted. I almost never get rooted. It is stuns that are out of hand in this game, not roots.

4. I'm not aware of any ability for any class that can chain root someone. Diminishing returns applies to statistics where the more you invest, the less you get back with each additional point. It has nothing to do with roots. What you are asking for is that roots be somehow added into the resolve system. I admit the resolve system is a problem. There are far too many stuns in this game. But roots I don't see as an issue. I don't recall ever being chain rooted in any warzone. If anything, adding roots into the resolve system would hurt sorcs more than it would help since both DPS trees rely on a root for some utility.

Sorcs are not an easy kill. Maybe your sorc is, but not mine. I have no problem with survivability in warzones because I understand the concept of positioning and kiting. If you can't stay alive in a warzone, you need to learn to play. It isn't the class.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
03.29.2013 , 01:48 PM | #14
As a side note, a lot of the complaints I'm hearing tend to focus on scenarios when someone is focused by two or more enemies. I really have a hard time understanding why people expect they should be able to win or even escape an encounter while outnumbered. If your opponents are even slightly competent, you are meat regardless of class. If you can't beat an opponent when you have them 2 on 1 or worse, you either made a huge mistake or you are terrible at PvP. Even classes with a vanish shouldn't be able to get away in such a scenario. If you DOT them at the beginning of the fight like you should, then they pop out of stealth when the DOT hits again, at which point you finish them. There isn't a single class in this game that shines when outnumbered. If that is what you expect, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
03.29.2013 , 02:00 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
As a side note, a lot of the complaints I'm hearing tend to focus on scenarios when someone is focused by two or more enemies. I really have a hard time understanding why people expect they should be able to win or even escape an encounter while outnumbered. If your opponents are even slightly competent, you are meat regardless of class. If you can't beat an opponent when you have them 2 on 1 or worse, you either made a huge mistake or you are terrible at PvP. Even classes with a vanish shouldn't be able to get away in such a scenario. If you DOT them at the beginning of the fight like you should, then they pop out of stealth when the DOT hits again, at which point you finish them. There isn't a single class in this game that shines when outnumbered. If that is what you expect, you are barking up the wrong tree.
Although this discussion is clogging up this fine OP's thread, a couple of points to bring up.

1) There are classes in game that can easily escape 2v1 scenarios without stealth (i.e. flashbang, intimidating roar, undying rage, overload root, whatever the sniper KB root is)
2) Shroud + stealth = escape, there is nothing you can do about that as all of your DoTs just disappeared. Operative/Scoundrel will cleanse before stealth every time so unless they have a force DoT, they aren't popping back up either
3) Mara/Sent are at their best when outnumbered hands down, espcially in Rage/Focus with the AOE damage.
4) The complaints with dying have to do with team fights, not being outnumbered. 2v1 I agree, you should die if you aren't able to escape. 4v4, you shouldn't be a free kill which is more the point that people are making.
I have opinions and stuff

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
03.29.2013 , 04:44 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
Although this discussion is clogging up this fine OP's thread, a couple of points to bring up.

1) There are classes in game that can easily escape 2v1 scenarios without stealth (i.e. flashbang, intimidating roar, undying rage, overload root, whatever the sniper KB root is)
2) Shroud + stealth = escape, there is nothing you can do about that as all of your DoTs just disappeared. Operative/Scoundrel will cleanse before stealth every time so unless they have a force DoT, they aren't popping back up either
3) Mara/Sent are at their best when outnumbered hands down, espcially in Rage/Focus with the AOE damage.
4) The complaints with dying have to do with team fights, not being outnumbered. 2v1 I agree, you should die if you aren't able to escape. 4v4, you shouldn't be a free kill which is more the point that people are making.
1. And we get Whirlwind, Electrocute, force slow, force speed, optional kb root, optional bubble stun, optional single target root on low cooldown. We have tools like any other class.
2. Funny that never seems to happen when I'm fighting operatives and scoundrels. They stealth, they pop out two seconds later. People just don't use cleanse as often as everyone seems to think.
3. Marauder/Sentinel should never win outnumbered. They get one heavy hitting AOE ability that works great for group pressure but is not going to save them when they are outnumbered. You get all kinds of tools to counter them. If you are letting marauders/sentinels beat you while outnumbered, you are bad.
4. The complaints absolutely had to do with being outnumbered 2 v 1 as they have specifically used that example. As for group melees, again I don't have problems there. We are far from being a free kill if you have any clue what you are doing. If you are spamming force storm, everyone and their brother is going to focus you. Stand at range, use your DOTs, death field, shock, and by the time you start casting force lightning and draw attention to yourself, you have them dead to rights. If you are in a group scenario and always getting focused, check your positioning. Check your mobility. It's you.

veyl's Avatar


veyl
03.29.2013 , 07:30 PM | #17
Sooner, did you do any testing in 2.0? From what you're saying... really doesn't seem like you did.

Sorcs (dps) are being bottlenecked into a lightning tree just to pick up the survivability and Madness is atrociously bad. Marauders // Juggs // PT's all can get out of roots too easily (aka, kiting is useless) in the expac and Snipers are just completely ridiculous with their output from ranged. You're pointing out the buffs we did get, but at the same time, the other classes (which were already stronger burst types) also received buffs that negate ours. That immunization bubble is good against unorganized teams... against any REAL team on vent though, the bubble will not mean anything but living for a few seconds longer every 3 minutes. (they will force you to use it so you cant be saved anymore).

I did a lot of testing during this PTS on the different DPS classes and sorcs (although lightning is really nice when you free up to turret) are still way behind everyone else in "balanced" terms.

@ the OP.

I love my sorc, it's easily the most challenging class to play in PVP but as you can see by the posts above, it's easily the most frustrating to play. Expect to be focused a lot, no matter what bracket you're in.

The story was one of my favorites and I had done the whole thing as a Light sight Sith. (ive also done the story dark side on my assassin and still think the LIght responses are more entertaining.) Leveling isn't that difficult as you have plenty of tools to stay alive. It's a strong healer class for End game raiding and in 2.0 DPS will be bumped up to be very good as well. Right now, it's just kind of mediocre.

My only real gripe with the story was Xalek. Mostly because you get him -so- late. If you're ahead of the leveling curve, you might not even get him because it's right before Correilla...but over all its a good class.

MidichIorian's Avatar


MidichIorian
03.29.2013 , 07:57 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Rugi View Post
So the double XP weekend is coming up and I am thinking of powerleveling a Sorcerer during it. My main is a Juggernaut so I'm looking to bring up a ranged toon next. Neither Merc nor Sniper appeals to me, so here I am! I just had a few questions for the community hear. How are Sorc's doing dps wise currently (Pve and pvp on live)? Are they getting any better or worse in 2.0? If Sorc is your main, what do you love most about the class?

And lastly, how is the story? I plan on going LS mostly but will probably pick up some DS points when I have to deal with the nobles on Alderaan. I'm just hoping that the LS Inquisitor story is as satisfying as the LS Warrior one, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

Thanks in advance!
The problem with sage/sorc is that it's one of the most fun classes to play...but far from the best. It might be one of the reasons to why BW is keeping it at its' current level. Had it been a top class we'd have 90 % of the population playing it. I would advice you to go with a better class to prevent that you're getting hooked when you could have played something better.

As for going LS, if you're going to spec Lightning you might aswell go marksman on a sniper or a more mobile sniper spec. I've never really understood why people create Lightning sorcs when there are so many better alternatives out there, better in the sense that they're more mobile without sacrificing damage.

Timing'wise, worst time ever. Give or take force mend I'd say that sorcs have become worse in every class patch since launch and 2.0 is the climax. They're once again messing with our CC/stuns and the damage boosts outside pure Lightning arent making up for the extra HP everyone will have. It takes a lot to burn me down on live but in 2.0 I'd die in sometimes one second. The barrier is a joke because the CD is so long that it won't be of any use outside highly strategic groups. So you will live ten seconds extra every 3 minutes...but you will die ten times more often when you don't have it off-CD. And a DCD where the only thing you can do is to stand there? I didnt even want a new DCD in the first place, making it the worst DCD in the game is just a slap in the face.

Now, i don't necessarily think that there's a great class imbalance in the game. I think the main problem is that sorcs and sages seem to benefit less from gearing up than some of the other classes. Had there been some ceiling on how much power people could stack we'd be closer to the burst classes and they wouldnt hit us for almost 7K on live and far more in 2.0.

HaemmernZeit's Avatar


HaemmernZeit
03.29.2013 , 08:14 PM | #19
HI there! My main is a Marauder, but I enjoy my sorc more. I only pvp with it so I can't comment on the PVE side.

Damage: Lots of dots make you look good on the scoreboard without doing a lot of killing. IE, Rage warriors will kill people a lot easier and faster.
I play the Lightning/Madness Hybrid and it is definitely harder than my mara. The class is more proc based and to put up any burst you have to have the right procs up at the right time.
Defense/Survivability: The hybrid has built in health regen on crits (make sure you have high crit) so while I'm dps specced, I can usually get my 75k healing medal. Like other people have said roots suck, but I don't find I have any problem dealing with most warriors/knights since I know what they are most likely going to do. I can usually solo or discourage most warriors/knights from attacking me. And watching them burst my bubble and then eat my knockback root just makes me giggle like a little school girl. SO much fun! You are definitely a target for people, but if you can kite/stun people smartly, you have some good survivability.
From what I hear, the damage in full lightning is going up considerably. One of the best sorcs I've played with said that with the proper procs up he could put up over 12k damage in 3 seconds. Didn't sound like it was too often, definitely not as often as Rage/Focus, but that is pretty good single target.
Story was boring, but I usually spacebar through most story lines.

Kindran's Avatar


Kindran
03.29.2013 , 08:28 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
1. And we get Whirlwind, Electrocute, force slow, force speed, optional kb root, optional bubble stun, optional single target root on low cooldown. We have tools like any other class.

2. Funny that never seems to happen when I'm fighting operatives and scoundrels. They stealth, they pop out two seconds later. People just don't use cleanse as often as everyone seems to think.

3. Marauder/Sentinel should never win outnumbered. They get one heavy hitting AOE ability that works great for group pressure but is not going to save them when they are outnumbered. You get all kinds of tools to counter them. If you are letting marauders/sentinels beat you while outnumbered, you are bad.

4. The complaints absolutely had to do with being outnumbered 2 v 1 as they have specifically used that example. As for group melees, again I don't have problems there. We are far from being a free kill if you have any clue what you are doing. If you are spamming force storm, everyone and their brother is going to focus you. Stand at range, use your DOTs, death field, shock, and by the time you start casting force lightning and draw attention to yourself, you have them dead to rights. If you are in a group scenario and always getting focused, check your positioning. Check your mobility. It's you.
1) We have "tools" like every class, but we do not have tools for group fights like every other class.

2) No wonder you think Sorcerers are fine. You are playing against people that do not know their class, or they do not know how to play. I play against people that purge, focus fire, and have friends. Every WZ game literally has 4 people from 1 guild and 2 more groups of 2 on both sides.

3 - 4) I NEVER stated outnumbered. I only stated when you have multiple people targeting you. IE. 4v4 mid fight with a class that can guard, a guarded healer, and 2 dps. A Sorcerer will die before anyone else in that situation. This happens even more so when its 6v6 or 7v7. A warrior/knight will have way more control, utility, damage, and survivability in that situation.
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Death's demise shall arise when Life's creation nullifies.
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Kindran <Carnage Gaming> (The Shadowlands)