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Disappointed about so-called "New In Game Barber-Shop"

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Disappointed about so-called "New In Game Barber-Shop"
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Emencie's Avatar


Emencie
03.28.2013 , 09:14 AM | #1111
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I also have a philosophical objection to the Cartel Packs, because it's an easy-cash-money-grab that depends on people buying RNG loot drops. Why not sell individual items in the CM direct? Because a fool and his money are quickly parted. "Just one more pack ..." makes a ton of bucks for EA.

...

But as I said before, this isn't likely to happen, seeing as how many players are just thrilled to throw money at EA for the privilege of a random chance of getting something they want.
If you like this game, want to see it continue and want to continue playing it you should be happy about both of these points. Because the People throwing money at EA are paying for your 2.0 patch and expansion comming out... How soon we forget that this game was in the toilet just a year ago, and hemorrhaging funds. Developers quitting, getting fired left and right, and it looked like it wouldn't last a year. SWTOR wasn't meant to go free to play, it needed to because the subs could not and still cannot sustain it. That cash shop that everyone hates so much is what is paying for the Gree event you enjoyed and all the content that came with that content patch, and the upcoming patches as well.

PlasmaJohn's Avatar


PlasmaJohn
03.28.2013 , 10:11 AM | #1112
Quote: Originally Posted by Emencie View Post
That cash shop that everyone hates so much is what is paying for the Gree event you enjoyed and all the content that came with that content patch, and the upcoming patches as well.
The way the CM is currently managed is not a sustainable business model. It's currently alienating many otherwise happy subscribers, particularly the people who don't agree that required expenditure of CC's is a good thing. The more EA pushes on that, the more people are going to drop their subs. Preferred status, while a nice step up from pure F2P, is really a very poor experience, so those people are very unlikely to stick around. Population will plummet again which will convince more people to leave.

The CM should feature new cosmetic only items but it should not be the exclusive or even near-exclusive vehicle they're introduced. Some exclusivity is acceptable, total is not. Since the release of the CM, they've effectively turned their backs on crafters and the incentive vendors (CE, et. al.). And some of the items (Gold Scalene, Revan's, Life Day) should have been obtainable via IG means.

Cogohi - Malkerson - Mysalia - Roxiani - Szachi
Aldriovok - Korduun - Mikkiani - Ojain - Oromunroe - Ryliani

DaRoamer's Avatar


DaRoamer
03.28.2013 , 10:41 AM | #1113
Quote: Originally Posted by PlasmaJohn View Post
The way the CM is currently managed is not a sustainable business model. It's currently alienating many otherwise happy subscribers, particularly the people who don't agree that required expenditure of CC's is a good thing. The more EA pushes on that, the more people are going to drop their subs. Preferred status, while a nice step up from pure F2P, is really a very poor experience, so those people are very unlikely to stick around. Population will plummet again which will convince more people to leave.

The CM should feature new cosmetic only items but it should not be the exclusive or even near-exclusive vehicle they're introduced. Some exclusivity is acceptable, total is not. Since the release of the CM, they've effectively turned their backs on crafters and the incentive vendors (CE, et. al.). And some of the items (Gold Scalene, Revan's, Life Day) should have been obtainable via IG means.
They ARE.

I'm not sure why some people cannot comprehend this basic truth but the cash shop system that Bioware implemented absolutely allows for this to happen. 99% of the items that you get from the Cartel Market are tradeable and therefore sellable. There have been almost no items that you could buy on the CM that I wasn't able to acquire with credits. I have been able to get everything I have wanted from the CM without spending ANY real world money. Now, I have actually spent money. When the last set of packs came out I topped up the 2500 free coins I had with the 5500 CC pack and bought a hypercrate of the new packs. I got most of the stuff I wanted and sold what I didn't want and was able to the buy the items I was missing from the packs.

It's no secret that subs alone were not keeping this game on solid financial ground. The move to free to play and the addition of a cash shop was required to keep development of the game going. However instead of making items on the CM bound to you, thereby forcing people who want any item from there to pay for it if they ran out of free coins, they made all the items BOE. This allows them to make money from people who don't have the time or desire to accumulate lots of credits in game and just want to pay real cash for the items they want while still making all those items available for those don't wish to spend real money and simply use in-game means to generate the credits required to purchase them from the GTN. Are the items cheap? Sometimes no, but that is the case with everything. You think if Revan's mask was an in-game drop that it would part of a fetch quest and not a rare drop from an Op that would cost millions in trade?

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
03.28.2013 , 11:41 AM | #1114
Quote: Originally Posted by Emencie View Post
If you like this game, want to see it continue and want to continue playing it you should be happy about both of these points. Because the People throwing money at EA are paying for your 2.0 patch and expansion comming out... How soon we forget that this game was in the toilet just a year ago, and hemorrhaging funds. Developers quitting, getting fired left and right, and it looked like it wouldn't last a year. SWTOR wasn't meant to go free to play, it needed to because the subs could not and still cannot sustain it. That cash shop that everyone hates so much is what is paying for the Gree event you enjoyed and all the content that came with that content patch, and the upcoming patches as well.
Do you think that the Cartel Market could not support the game if it had direct sale items for everything inside the Cartel Pack?

Are you trying to argue that the only way for the CM to make this game profitable is to bank on the "just one more ..." foolishness of people with disposable income?

What if Bioware had to put things in the Cartel Market that people were willing to throw money at INSTEAD OF RNG LOOT DROPS?

PlasmaJohn's Avatar


PlasmaJohn
03.28.2013 , 12:05 PM | #1115
Quote: Originally Posted by DaRoamer View Post
They ARE.
You are willfully misinterpreting what people mean by "available via IG means", please stop. Due to their nature, those specific items should have been available as mission awards. Just because they can be put on the GTN it doesn't guarantee it will (Med Probes anybody?) or that they'll be reasonably priced.

Some people want to spend real world cash for their toys, other want them via achievements instead. Buying things off the GTN means I know how to grind credits which really ain't much of an achievement esp. once you hit 50.

Cogohi - Malkerson - Mysalia - Roxiani - Szachi
Aldriovok - Korduun - Mikkiani - Ojain - Oromunroe - Ryliani

Levity's Avatar


Levity
03.28.2013 , 12:12 PM | #1116
Quote: Originally Posted by Emencie View Post
If you like this game, want to see it continue and want to continue playing it you should be happy about both of these points. Because the People throwing money at EA are paying for your 2.0 patch and expansion comming out... How soon we forget that this game was in the toilet just a year ago, and hemorrhaging funds. Developers quitting, getting fired left and right, and it looked like it wouldn't last a year. SWTOR wasn't meant to go free to play, it needed to because the subs could not and still cannot sustain it. That cash shop that everyone hates so much is what is paying for the Gree event you enjoyed and all the content that came with that content patch, and the upcoming patches as well.
Every time I see this response I always think of this picture in my head. Subscription money goes in, pays for everything development wise. CM money goes in and is pocketed.

That may very well be what they do and you have no basis to say that it doesn't nor do you have the basis to assume what you said above.

DaRoamer's Avatar


DaRoamer
03.28.2013 , 12:45 PM | #1117
Quote: Originally Posted by PlasmaJohn View Post
You are willfully misinterpreting what people mean by "available via IG means", please stop. Due to their nature, those specific items should have been available as mission awards. Just because they can be put on the GTN it doesn't guarantee it will (Med Probes anybody?) or that they'll be reasonably priced.

Some people want to spend real world cash for their toys, other want them via achievements instead. Buying things off the GTN means I know how to grind credits which really ain't much of an achievement esp. once you hit 50.
I'm not misrepresenting anything. Most of these items were specifically designed for and financed by the cartel market. Bioware has a cartel team who's sole job it is to create unique content for people to spend money on because this is a big part of their business model at this point. You simply have to accept that as fact, MMOs in general are moving in this direction. Now, the vast majority of the items of interest to subscribers are cosmetic and vanity items. You have plenty of vehicles and armor that are only available from achieving things that you can show off. Since clearly your interest in these items is because of vanity I don't buy the excuse that you'll only appreciate them if you "earned" them. You should be thankful that other people are willing to spend money on these items to help support the game while you still have access to them because Bioware made all the CM items BOE.

Emencie's Avatar


Emencie
03.28.2013 , 01:04 PM | #1118
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar
Do you think that the Cartel Market could not support the game if it had direct sale items for everything inside the Cartel Pack?
I cannot even pretend to understand what the money marketing team and financial advisors have to deal with with the mess that is SWTOR. We know it cost a lot of money, more than any other game has ever cost, even with the low end estimates the development costs of this game put it at 50% more costly than the runner up. We also know that the game tanked hard and quickly. They were/are hurting for money and that's all I know for certain.

Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar
Are you trying to argue that the only way for the CM to make this game profitable is to bank on the "just one more ..." foolishness of people with disposable income?
No, Im saying that as you said this is a very profitable approach (of course it is) and someone in the financial advising department thinks so as well. and that money is going to the development of the game.

Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar
What if Bioware had to put things in the Cartel Market that people were willing to throw money at INSTEAD OF RNG LOOT DROPS?
It would mean less money going to EA. Would it mean enough money going to EA to keep development on the game? Perhaps. I cant say either way. But I do know without the nickle and dime CM we wouldn't be playing SWTOR today.

Quote: Originally Posted by Levity View Post
Every time I see this response I always think of this picture in my head. Subscription money goes in, pays for everything development wise. CM money goes in and is pocketed.

That may very well be what they do and you have no basis to say that it doesn't nor do you have the basis to assume what you said above.
That very well may be... While I wouldn't say it is split like that but you bet your *** they are pocketing more money than they put into development. You do realize that while the developers may be making this game because they love making games and making us happy. The producers, and heads are in it to make money right? If they are not making money they will not continue to support the game. It is not unheard of for the investors (producers) to make over 5 times their investment back from the game. Big games are a business, If you want the personal companies that are just looking to make their playerbase happy you need to look to the indie market. The big corporations are looking to double triple and quadruple their investments. Meaning for ever 1 dollar of development cost they want 4 dollars back. If the subs pay for development and the CM pays for the producers to keep fronting the cash for the team to keep making the game... what is the problem?

Do you honestly think they will keep investing their time and money into a game that gives out exactly what they put in? That's not how business works. The moment they stop making a percentage on top of their money, or foresee a time when they wont make anything at all is the day the servers shut down. there are some developer/producers that break this mold. (I believe NCsoft let COH stay up for years though it was just about breaking even.) But this is far from the norm.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
03.28.2013 , 01:20 PM | #1119
Quote: Originally Posted by Emencie View Post
...

It would mean less money going to EA. Would it mean enough money going to EA to keep development on the game? Perhaps. I cant say either way. But I do know without the nickle and dime CM we wouldn't be playing SWTOR today.

...
(emphasis added by me)

I'm stunned that you are an apologist of this practice.

I posit that it is possible to put a variety of interesting and useful things in the Cartel Market, that will generate the same revenue of the Cartel Pack RNG-loop-drop inanity. It requires intelligence, it requires creativity, it requires forethought, it requires surveying fans, it requires abilities found in good game designers.

On the flipside, it is cheap, easy and lazy to toss another Cartel Pack on the market with more rare loot.

I'm not lobbying for the Cartel Market to shut down or to stop making money. I'm lobbying for the corporate-suit-mentality to take a hike and have the team be forced to come up with worthwhile alternatives.

My pleas on this subject will never be heeded by EA. They're making money hand-over-fist with the cheap, easy, no-effort solution. Why should they work harder? But I'm still going to bring it up anyway.

I'm disappointed to run into someone whose standards are such that they not only defend this, but claim it's the only way the game was saved from oblivion.

PlasmaJohn's Avatar


PlasmaJohn
03.28.2013 , 01:24 PM | #1120
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I posit that it is possible to put a variety of interesting and useful things in the Cartel Market, that will generate the same revenue of the Cartel Pack RNG-loop-drop inanity. It requires intelligence, it requires creativity, it requires forethought, it requires surveying fans, it requires abilities found in good game designers.

On the flipside, it is cheap, easy and lazy to toss another Cartel Pack on the market with more rare loot.

I'm not lobbying for the Cartel Market to shut down or to stop making money. I'm lobbying for the corporate-suit-mentality to take a hike and have the team be forced to come up with worthwhile alternatives.
/applause and /signed

Cogohi - Malkerson - Mysalia - Roxiani - Szachi
Aldriovok - Korduun - Mikkiani - Ojain - Oromunroe - Ryliani