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Disappointed about so-called "New In Game Barber-Shop"

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Disappointed about so-called "New In Game Barber-Shop"
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idnewton's Avatar


idnewton
03.27.2013 , 09:05 PM | #1101
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I have to stop you right there. There is a fourth way of obtaining Grade 7 spaceship parts:

4. Bought on the GTN from players who spent cash in the Cartel Market, and are flipping it for in-game credits.
Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
In the case that players no longer buy these items off of the Cartel Market and sell them on the GTN, crafters are a backup plan.

That's the implied forth way of getting these items: GTN. I do believe Bioware miscalcuated the value these items would settle at on the GTN (which, if I recall correctly, was incredibly cheap). The market wizards saw a giant opportunity and the price dropped like a stone.
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
These players undercut the market to less than 20% the cost of the raw materials. I know of no crafter that stayed in the Grade 7 ship parts market after this. And I know of MANY that had been looking forward to adding these to their crafting repertoire prior to this point.

Do you realize it wasn't even worth it to craft parts for friends just for the materials. The friend could sell the 4 molecs it would take to make ONE part and use the money buy ALL SIX parts off the GTN.

Some developer spent time thinking about crafting Grade 7 spaceship parts. Schematics were made and priced. Material lists were worked out. Do you get it? Somebody actually spent time thinking this was a good idea to add to the game. These schematics were rendered irrelevant 15 minutes after 1.6 dropped.

Heck, the spaceship parts didn't even have a 36-hour resale lockout. Buy 'em, list 'em, bang!
Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
The crafting method is more to acknowledge the crafters than give them an amazing new market. In the case that players no longer buy these items off of the Cartel Market and sell them on the GTN, crafters are a backup plan.

Lowering the materials would defeat the purpose of the craftability of these items, which were more of a backup plan to the Cartel Market anyways.
My ability to respond to your questions with quotes from my original post leads me to request you read the entire post, because my personal feeling is...
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I have to stop you right there.
You stopped yourself there too
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DaRoamer's Avatar


DaRoamer
03.27.2013 , 09:06 PM | #1102
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthZak View Post
Wut? Ok, I cant make any sense of that
The stuff I mentioned is available for direct purchase with in-game creds but not for resale on the GTN. This is exactly how I would like this shop to be, an option between in-game creds and CC's
*sigh*

Me - You'll be able to buy it with credits on the GTN
You - You don't know that! What if it's not tradeable?!?
Me - Which things from the Cartel shop aren't tradeable?
You - Legacy unlocks! I can buy those with Cartel coins but I can't trade them!
Me - That's because you can buy them with credits directly unlike the appearance change
You - Yes! I want to buy appearance change with credits!
Me - You'll be able to buy it with credits on the GTN

DarthZak's Avatar


DarthZak
03.27.2013 , 09:15 PM | #1103
Quote: Originally Posted by DaRoamer View Post
*sigh*

Me - You'll be able to buy it with credits on the GTN
You - You don't know that! What if it's not tradeable?!?
Me - Which things from the Cartel shop aren't tradeable?
You - Legacy unlocks! I can buy those with Cartel coins but I can't trade them!
Me - That's because you can buy them with credits directly unlike the appearance change
You - Yes! I want to buy appearance change with credits!
Me - You'll be able to buy it with credits on the GTN
And youre missing the essence here that regardless of whether or not I can buy it on the GTN, someone still has to buy it on the CM and THAT is an issue
The Peacecraft Legacy
Elycia , Mariemaia , Minagoroshi

DaRoamer's Avatar


DaRoamer
03.27.2013 , 09:23 PM | #1104
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthZak View Post
And youre missing the essence here that regardless of whether or not I can buy it on the GTN, someone still has to buy it on the CM and THAT is an issue
Yes, just like someone has to craft something that you can't craft before you buy it from the GTN, and someone has to loot something you haven't looted before you can buy it from the GTN. The point is, you'll be able to buy it with credits. I don't know why the original source of the item you're purchasing matters to you as a purchaser. I get 700 coins per month for the same sub fee I've always been paying. I can get the appearance token and sell it to you. Neither of us have paid real money for it. Or, I can buy the unlock with real money because I've spent my free coins on something else, Bioware gets extra cash to help develop new content and you can STILL buy the item with credits, all the while being able to grin with smug satisfaction that you stuck it to the man by not spending any real money on the appearance change.

idnewton's Avatar


idnewton
03.27.2013 , 09:23 PM | #1105
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthZak View Post
And youre missing the essence here that regardless of whether or not I can buy it on the GTN, someone still has to buy it on the CM and THAT is an issue
Finally, a core belief is stated, with which I flatly disagree. No... it isn't a problem. Someone will be greedy enough or stupid enough to buy it on the CM and resell it on the GTN. If more people think they can do that too, more will, and the price will drop. Being one of those stupid and/or greedy people is your choice (and while I may have chosen words which sound biased against that idea, I am not actually. I simply couldn't find better words ). The fact of the matter is that there will be players who will resell on the GTN. Then you can buy for credits. If you don't want anyone buying off of the CM, as your post indicates, well... that's simply not your call to make. Players can make their own decision, and I do not see the logic in disagreeing with something that will benefit you (them buying off of CM and reselling means you can buy with credits, which you have stated you want to do).
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Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
03.27.2013 , 09:57 PM | #1106
Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
My ability to respond to your questions with quotes from my original post leads me to request you read the entire post, because my personal feeling is...

You stopped yourself there too
*sigh*

I actually did read your post. All the way to the tippy tippy mostest end, even!

Okay, since you consider that your original response addresses all of my points (which is doesn't in my estimation), let me narrow down to one specific part.
Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
The crafting method is more to acknowledge the crafters than give them an amazing new market. In the case that players no longer buy these items off of the Cartel Market and sell them on the GTN, crafters are a backup plan.
Let's pretend this is true. Let's pretend that Bioware wasn't trying to give crafters a new market. Let's just say that their intention was to "acknowledge the crafters"

Now let's go back to one of the points I made:
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Do you realize it wasn't even worth it to craft parts for friends just for the materials. The friend could sell the 4 molecs it would take to make ONE part and use the money buy ALL SIX parts off the GTN.
How is this an acknowledgement of crafters? "We know you like to craft stuff, so here's something you can craft that requires a lot of grinding to learn how to do, a lot of expensive materials, oh, and we're going to let players with lots of disposable income undercut you"

I see that you're willing to concede "I do believe Bioware miscalcuated the value these items would settle at on the GTN" and yet you find fault with every suggestion to balance the situation, and consider that everything ended up fair, just and logical.

That an entire set of crafting added to the game was rendered completely obsolete through the Cartel Market.

This is not an idea borne of a developer that loves the game and crafting and wants it to be made fun and interesting and useful. This is an idea borne of a someone trying to make a profit at the EXPENSE of gameplay.

idnewton's Avatar


idnewton
03.27.2013 , 10:25 PM | #1107
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
*sigh*

I actually did read your post. All the way to the tippy tippy mostest end, even!

Okay, since you consider that your original response addresses all of my points (which is doesn't in my estimation), let me narrow down to one specific part.

Let's pretend this is true. Let's pretend that Bioware wasn't trying to give crafters a new market. Let's just say that their intention was to "acknowledge the crafters"

Now let's go back to one of the points I made:

How is this an acknowledgement of crafters? "We know you like to craft stuff, so here's something you can craft that requires a lot of grinding to learn how to do, a lot of expensive materials, oh, and we're going to let players with lots of disposable income undercut you"

I see that you're willing to concede "I do believe Bioware miscalcuated the value these items would settle at on the GTN" and yet you find fault with every suggestion to balance the situation, and consider that everything ended up fair, just and logical.

That an entire set of crafting added to the game was rendered completely obsolete through the Cartel Market.

This is not an idea borne of a developer that loves the game and crafting and wants it to be made fun and interesting and useful. This is an idea borne of a someone trying to make a profit at the EXPENSE of gameplay.
I'm sick and tired of my internet connection dying as I post, making me rewrite my entire posts...

To summarize what I attempted to say before my internet bonked me on the head, I already stated that crafting was a backup, not a significant market. Biometric Crystal Alloys are dirt cheap on the gtn, and Stabilizers will follow with the new endgame crafting mats coming in 2.0. Thus, it may be viable to craft these items if players are no longer buying them off of the Cartel Market to resell onto the GTN.

The reason I find fault in the suggestions is because I was asked to. I stated that I could find logic in nearly all of Bioware's actions and you, in short, said 'bring it on.' So I did Perhaps you do not agree with their choice of weighing the flaws as more important than the suggestions themselves, but it is a developer's choice and such final actions do not have to be justified by further logic, per se. Logic provided them with two relatively balanced options, and they chose not to change anything (which is the more resource-conservative choice).

In short, I do not believe Bioware ever intended for Grade 7 ship gear to be a significant crafting platform. After all, if it was... why would there only be two craftable pieces, hmm?


PS: I'm tired and probably missed some essential piece of information that was in my original post attempt which made this all make sense. If so, feel free to tell me so, because I probably did.
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Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
03.27.2013 , 10:52 PM | #1108
Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
I'm sick and tired of my internet connection dying as I post, making me rewrite my entire posts...

To summarize what I attempted to say before my internet bonked me on the head, I already stated that crafting was a backup, not a significant market. Biometric Crystal Alloys are dirt cheap on the gtn, and Stabilizers will follow with the new endgame crafting mats coming in 2.0. Thus, it may be viable to craft these items if players are no longer buying them off of the Cartel Market to resell onto the GTN.

The reason I find fault in the suggestions is because I was asked to. I stated that I could find logic in nearly all of Bioware's actions and you, in short, said 'bring it on.' So I did Perhaps you do not agree with their choice of weighing the flaws as more important than the suggestions themselves, but it is a developer's choice and such final actions do not have to be justified by further logic, per se. Logic provided them with two relatively balanced options, and they chose not to change anything (which is the more resource-conservative choice).

In short, I do not believe Bioware ever intended for Grade 7 ship gear to be a significant crafting platform. After all, if it was... why would there only be two craftable pieces, hmm?


PS: I'm tired and probably missed some essential piece of information that was in my original post attempt which made this all make sense. If so, feel free to tell me so, because I probably did.
Fair enough, you were responding to a challenge to find logic in those events.

I suppose my objection isn't that the decision is illogical, it is that the logic is such that it benefits the short-term bottom line, at the expense of the players. Such logic is usually associated with "marketing executives" not "game developers"

As a software developer myself, it hasn't been uncommon to see a product get corrupted by an executive making short-sighted decisions. In one notable case the failure was so spectacular, it resulted in the business having to lay off 50% of the employees (with the executive in question getting "fired" with a million dollar severance package). I'm sure he was crying all the way to the bank.

When I listen to the crowdfunding pitch from Chris Roberts and Brian Fargo (game developers I personally respect), they make specific mention of what happens when short-sighted publishers get in the way of game development and how happy they are to obtain funding without such strings attached.

EA doesn't have a sterling reputation. I find it hard to believe that similar events wouldn't happen in that company Every. Single. Week.

It's not that adding the spaceship parts aren't logical. It's just that it is logic is founded in greed. When you so casually tossed off this statement:
Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
...

My general experience with Bioware has been that there is some kind of logic behind what they do, even if most cannot see it.

...
It seems quite blind to me.

I believe that there are ways the Cartel Market can be used that are good. I also believe there are ways the Cartel Market can be used that are short-sighted and greedy. I also believe that the Cartel Market is making money for EA hand-over-fist, and absolutely nothing I say will make the slightest bit of difference to them.

And yet, I still wish to argue against the Cartel Market being misused.

idnewton's Avatar


idnewton
03.27.2013 , 11:03 PM | #1109
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I still wish to argue against the Cartel Market being misused.
Our opinions of misuse differ, and this, most likely, is the core of our disagreement.

I doubt either of us is going to convince the other to change their mind, though, so I suppose we'll just have to leave it at that


PS: In the case that you do want to know my definition of CM misuse, it is simply this: Honor your promise, keep P2W out of CM and all will be good.
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Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
03.28.2013 , 12:12 AM | #1110
Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
Our opinions of misuse differ, and this, most likely, is the core of our disagreement.

I doubt either of us is going to convince the other to change their mind, though, so I suppose we'll just have to leave it at that


PS: In the case that you do want to know my definition of CM misuse, it is simply this: Honor your promise, keep P2W out of CM and all will be good.
Fair enough.

My definition of misuse is: "Putting things in the Cartel Market that will make cash for EA at the expense of making gameplay worse"

This definition is flawed, because it relies on a highly subjective opinion. Namely, is something "making gameplay worse". The ship materials stand out to me as one facet of gameplay (crafting ship parts) that was made worse by selling ship parts on the CM.

I also have a philosophical objection to the Cartel Packs, because it's an easy-cash-money-grab that depends on people buying RNG loot drops. Why not sell individual items in the CM direct? Because a fool and his money are quickly parted. "Just one more pack ..." makes a ton of bucks for EA.

Because if this, I fear that it will be easier to add more RNG loot drops in the CM rather than doing meaningful development. Note that this is simply a fear of this happening. I have no evidence, nothing I can document. I merely assume that every Marketing Executive is a greedy money-grubbing bastard with no hope of being a useful member of society. This is based on every Marketing Executive I've ever had the displeasure to meet personally.

If the Cartel Packs were removed from the CM, it would remove temptation from the worst of the people employed to manage SWTOR.

But as I said before, this isn't likely to happen, seeing as how many players are just thrilled to throw money at EA for the privilege of a random chance of getting something they want.