Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Sith empire has lost


Zaxem's Avatar


Zaxem
03.21.2013 , 10:58 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by XantosCledwin View Post
If you have all classes to 50, then you should know that what you fought in the Jedi Knight's Final Class Battle was not the Emperor but instead basically what amounts to the Emperor's body double. In fact none of the classes actually get the opportunity to fight the actual Emperor as of yet. In fact I don't believe the actual Emperor has a physical manifestation which we can actually fight anymore to begin with. Or at least not one that is sufficiently substantial enough to make it worth fighting.

In essence the way I am understanding the way the Emperor exists in the current time frame is basically that he amounts to a force sensitive Goa'uld with sort of the same kinds of powers and existence as Anubis. That would make him kind of difficult to kill to begin with.

Also, it should be noted, that in Star Wars Canon (generally the expanded Universe) killing the Emperor has never been evidence that you have killed the Empire itself. Given that killing Emperor Palpatine did not finish off the Galactic Empire in any way shape or form, and the Rebellion still had a long way to go before it saw it's final victory over the forces of the Galactic Empire.
^ what this guy said
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.-Through passion, I gain strength.Through strength, I gain power.Through power, I gain victory.Through victory, my chains are broken.The Force shall free me 55 Juggernaut55 Assassin 50 Sniper 55 Mercenary50 Guardian55 Marauder

AdmiralOnasi's Avatar


AdmiralOnasi
03.22.2013 , 12:14 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
Why? The machinery of the Empire is still in place, the Dark Council is still functioning, no Imperial Core Worlds have been lost. Hell, the Emperor has been largely detached from the business of the Empire for years anyway.
While the Empire does still retain most of its planets, it has sustained some terrible losses. Balmorra was lost after the Republic and Balmorran patriots were able to retake Sobrik and Balmorran Arms. To boot, new president Tai Cordan and the Balmorran Congress vote to join the Republic. So not only does the Empire lose the tremendous Balmorran manufacturing capabilities and war tech, but the Republic gains these assets. The Republic also gains the Esh-Kha, and at least one Voss mystic. The Empire wins Taris... and all of its rakghouls and urban decay. And the Empire loses Corellia and a tremendous amount of war assets and troops during the fight, including the First Son, ALL the Children of the Emperor, the Voidwolf (and all his forces), and Darmas Pollaran. The Empire also fights a civil war after Corellia when Malgus turns on the Emperor and the Dark Council, costing the Empire a fleet, their alliance with the Schism Collective, and Malgus's space station.

Speaking of the Dark Council, there has been MASSIVE turnover on the council over the course of the game. Long serving members like Thanaton, Malgus, and Baras are killed and replaced with unproven Sith. Other, less influential council members are killed. People like Lachris (killed by the Barsen'thor and Zenith on Balmorra) and Arho (killed by the Republic on Ilum), and potentially Jadus depending on what's canon in the Agent story. And as said earlier in the thread, the Emperor is in a state of hibernation and is unable to lend his mind or influence with the war turning against the Empire.

Quote:
By that logic the Republic shouldn't exist in this game, given that Coruscant was in flames and the heart of the Jedi Order was razed.
While forcing the Jedi off of Coruscant and creating tensions between them and the Republic was a major blow, it was not a crushing move. By the time the game starts (~10 years ATC), the Jedi have recovered a lot of their former strength and repaired their relations with the Republic somewhat. The Empire also did very little damage to Coruscant all things considered. The real purpose of attacking Coruscant was to force the Republic to agree to unfavorable terms. While reconstruction is still ongoing, all the infrastructure is still there, the Senate tower is still there, and the population is still there.

Quote:
I personally find it annoying that absolutely everything seems to be going the Republic's way, but even the death of the Emperor is not nearly the same kind of blow to the Empire that the Republic suffered when their capital was sacked and the Jedi were drive out of the seat of the Order.
I think one thing you're forgetting is that the Sith have a much greater impact on the day to day administration of the Empire than the Jedi do on the Republic. Where the Republic has the Senate, planetary governments, the judicial system, and the executive branch, the Empire only has the Sith. The Sith create the laws, administer planets (Imperial worlds and recent conquests), they enforce the laws (with the help of Imperial Intelligence), and the Emperor is the chief executive of the Empire.

The Jedi are not the Republic, but the Sith are the Empire. And Sith infighting and turnover on the Dark Council has sent the Empire reeling, but Republic victories on Balmorra and Corellia has given the Republic momentum. I'd also like to add that the Bounty Hunter defeating the Supreme Chancellor is going to be a net negative for the Empire. Janarus is presented in the game as an ineffective leader much like Neville Chamberlain or Jimmy Carter. Saresh, on the other hand, is a very strong leader (you could say she's like Winston Churchill or Ronald Reagan) who gets the Rift Alliance in line (something Janarus couldn't do, he assigns the Barsen'thor to be his representative to them out of frustration), and is able to get new laws passed to grant additional funding to the Republic military.

The main reason the Republic is perceived to be doing well is because all the back story and lead-up for the game was about the Empire beating the crap out of the Republic (probably why everyone rolled Imperial at launch). And if not for tremendous sacrifice (Bothawui and Alderaan) and the ability of Revan to temper the Emperor's hatred, the Republic would have been destroyed and we wouldn't have the game.

jovianus's Avatar


jovianus
03.22.2013 , 04:05 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by AdmiralOnasi View Post
While forcing the Jedi off of Coruscant and creating tensions between them and the Republic was a major blow, it was not a crushing move. By the time the game starts (~10 years ATC), the Jedi have recovered a lot of their former strength and repaired their relations with the Republic somewhat. The Empire also did very little damage to Coruscant all things considered. The real purpose of attacking Coruscant was to force the Republic to agree to unfavorable terms. While reconstruction is still ongoing, all the infrastructure is still there, the Senate tower is still there, and the population is still there
Crying doom and gloom for the Empire, and casually dismissing the Republics losses during the war with "They got better." isn't really very convincing.

The Jedi Temple was razed, countless Jedi were massacred, they were driven off of Coruscant and a rift created between the Order and the Republic. I don't really think 'very little damage' is accurate when a decade later entire sectors are still no-go zones for Republic forces and major infrastructure problems still exist.

I'm quite sure if Dromund Kaas and Korriban had been sacked in game by the Republic, people would be holding it up as proof that the Empire was in it's death throes.

Quote:
The main reason the Republic is perceived to be doing well is because all the back story and lead-up for the game was about the Empire beating the crap out of the Republic (probably why everyone rolled Imperial at launch). And if not for tremendous sacrifice (Bothawui and Alderaan) and the ability of Revan to temper the Emperor's hatred, the Republic would have been destroyed and we wouldn't have the game.
I don't dispute that the Republic has the momentum at the moment, what I dispute is the argument that the War is over, because while the Republic can apparently bounce back no matter what we're supposed to believe that any setback spells irrevocable DOOM!!!11 for the Empire.

Euphrosyne's Avatar


Euphrosyne
03.22.2013 , 05:34 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
I don't dispute that the Republic has the momentum at the moment, what I dispute is the argument that the War is over, because while the Republic can apparently bounce back no matter what we're supposed to believe that any setback spells irrevocable DOOM!!!11 for the Empire.
I agree that the Empire's not irrevocably screwed by this point, more due to the dictates of the MMO-story than anything else, but the Empire is intrinsically more vulnerable to defeats than the Republic is. Relatively speaking, the Empire was always a more marginal, even regional power, which overexpanded during the war to a comical degree. Its power base consists of a "species" that was supposed to have been eradicated but that hid out on a few worlds in the Unknown Regions for a millennium, a cadre of fratricidal Force-users, and a vast, racially oppressed and/or enslaved underclass. The margin of error for the Empire is much, much lower than it is for the prevailing galactic government of the last twenty millennia.
Euphrosynē (n., Greek) - "mirth, merriment"
Fanfic: Beyond Good and Evil

SonzeK's Avatar


SonzeK
03.22.2013 , 11:17 AM | #15
anyway,after 20,000 years The empire falls by Luke skywalker,and all remaining Sith/imperials remain hostage or disappear in the outer rim.

XantosCledwin's Avatar


XantosCledwin
03.22.2013 , 11:27 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by SonzeK View Post
anyway,after 20,000 years The empire falls by Luke skywalker,and all remaining Sith/imperials remain hostage or disappear in the outer rim.
If Luke completely defeated the Sith Empire, then there wouldn't be very much for the New Jedi Order and the New Republic to do in Movie 7 now would there? Plus it was really Anakin who defeated the Emperor not Luke. Additionally, as the Expanded Universe has obviously pointed out, cutting the head of the Empire off (the Emperor) does not necessarily defeat the Empire itself right away.
55 Mara / 14 Sniper / 2 Inq
41 Sin / 38 PTech / 31 Sage / 24 Vngrd / 11 Jugg
The Cledwin Legacy / The Shadowlands

Euphrosyne's Avatar


Euphrosyne
03.22.2013 , 01:08 PM | #17
Implying some sort of continuity across the various tinpot dictatorships that have opposed the Republic and the Jedi across the millennia is more than a little reaching, don't you think?
Euphrosynē (n., Greek) - "mirth, merriment"
Fanfic: Beyond Good and Evil

zzoorrzz's Avatar


zzoorrzz
03.25.2013 , 05:03 AM | #18
Personally I don't believe for a sec that Emperor is dead. It would be plain ridiculous if some sort of a jedi knight could kill him. Doesn't make sense. On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if that was his plan to pretend his own death and plot the major strike while republic is celebrating.

smartalectwo's Avatar


smartalectwo
03.25.2013 , 05:39 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
I don't dispute that the Republic has the momentum at the moment, what I dispute is the argument that the War is over, because while the Republic can apparently bounce back no matter what we're supposed to believe that any setback spells irrevocable DOOM!!!11 for the Empire.
The Republic's a bit of a juggernaught. Huge, old, ponderous and slow, a massive alliance of thousands of individual star systems all working together for economic and military benefit. It's the kind of government that will take a long time to get traction, but it's got so much bulk that once it does get rolling, it's probably more than a match for the Sith Empire in terms of men, materials and fighting spirit.

By comparison, the Sith Empire, as a centralised tyranny, is more like a pack of predators. It cuts through the red tape, it's quick and can lunge for the kill, but it can't get a quick kill it's better off backing away. It's just not as big as the Republic, and though its leaders and officer corps are highly motivated, it's probably going to reach the point when it's throwing boys and old men into the fight faster than the Republic will.

The Republic has taken everything the Sith Empire can throw at it, and seems to have endured and picked itself up, just like it has every time something big has invaded it. We haven't seen this Sith Empire on the defensive before, but no Sith Empire has really done well in that position. Obviously, there are doubts as to whether it's ready for this.
There is no try.

YlliyaXor's Avatar


YlliyaXor
03.25.2013 , 06:26 AM | #20
Any crazy and powerful person with intentions of killing and enslaving in the SW universe can call themselves "Sith Empire", as we saw in the first movies at one point the republic and the sith empire will be the same thing.

The advantage of the bad guys is that they don't play by the rules so even if they lose they are not obliged or expected to admit it.

The thing about the empire is that just like any other organization that claims superiority over others, when faced with a adversary that shows at least equal strength, if they were honest in their beliefs of superiority they would revise their beliefs since they are obviously not as superior as they thought they were.