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Selecting need for loot


Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
03.20.2013 , 12:24 PM | #491
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
No, equal chance happened before the loot dropped. This is where you're not seeing it clearly.

Say there are 10 quarters and you and I are going to flip the coins one at a time and see who gets them. If it's heads, then I get the quarter. If it's tails, you get the quarter. If I win the first 9 quarters, you seem to feel that you should get the last one, regardless of the pre-set rules. You also seem to think that even though it came up heads on the first quarter, that now we should roll to see who gets it.

So, think of the quarters as loot drop. There's 10 of them in an instance (this is an example so say there are 10 bosses). I'm a Marauder (Heads) and you're a healing Merc (Tails). The standing social standard of etiquette dictates that I get marauder drops (Medium Armor with dps Str stats) and you get healing merc drops (Heavy Aim armor with healing stats). The boss is killed (the coin is being flipped) and the loot comes up as a Medium Armor with DPS Str stats (it landed heads). That's where your "chance" occurs. But you seem to want to roll off again as if the first "chance" never occurred.

See the problem? You're completely forgetting the equal chance occurred BEFORE the loot was identified.

As I said before, sure, you are not exploiting anything in this game by rolling need. Even if the group AGREED to the social taboos in writing in the party chat beforehand, you are not getting banned for rolling NEED. That's exactly like a guildmate taking all the stuff from the gbank and gquitting. That's part of the rules that it's not in the rules. But it is in the social rules of etiquette that you're breaking.

Do you get it yet?
This might be true IF bosses ONLY dropped loot based on the group composition. I have read in this thread that this is supposed to be the way loot if determined, but it is not always the case. As an experiment, I went back and soloed 3 low level instances on my scoundrel, and only one piece if cunning gear dropped. I saw two pairs of aim pants, an aim blaster rifle, a willpower lightsaber, an aim autocannon, an aim chest, a strength light saber, a cunning hat and a strength chest piece. That does not seem to be based on group composition. If it had been, I should have seen only cunning gear drop. Am I correct?.

cidbahamut's Avatar


cidbahamut
03.20.2013 , 12:25 PM | #492
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
I've already explained this countless times in this thread.

Basically, your companion is for solo play but you didn't obtain the loot from solo play. Your companion's gear cannot help the group in the Flashpoint therefore upgrading said gear for your companion only benefits you.

I find it sort of a selfish point to take the gear for solo play when someone could use it for all facets of the game: solo play and group play. Therefore, because your companion cannot function in all aspects of the game, they get secondary priority on loot versus someone else who can use the gear all of the time.

That's why I feel my needs are greater - because the gear will be used all of the time. If the group did another flashpoint all together afterwards, having the gear go to someone's toon will show in the group with either more dps, better damage reductions, or better healing. However if you took that loot away from someone to give to your companion... are you seeing any improvement in the groups performance? Of course not... because taking it for your companion only benefits you and no one else.

And please, don't try to argue that .02% damage reduction isn't noticeable therefore my point isn't valid... the spirit of the statement still holds true and there is a benefit to the group if no one is taking for their companion as a priority. If you really want, say there's a group of 4 people who, after 10 runs, have 0 upgrades because every upgrade for their toon has gone to upgrading someone else's companion. That group, after 10 runs, performs just as poorly as it did before, while the other group, who focused on gearing your toon as a priority, now have several upgrades to help them through the FP's and probably some gear for their companions.

Do you not see the benefit to putting companions secondary at that point? Do you not see how "all the time" > "some of the time"?
I see the logic and value in it, but I disagree with the premise.

Basically you're saying that I will never be rewarded for contributing, I will only be allowed to acquire gear solely for the benefit of the group. I find that to be a flawed system. It effectively means that I am prevented from working towards achieving my own goals.

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
03.20.2013 , 12:30 PM | #493
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
This might be true IF bosses ONLY dropped loot based on the group composition. I have read in this thread that this is supposed to be the way loot if determined, but it is not always the case. As an experiment, I went back and soloed 3 low level instances on my scoundrel, and only one piece if cunning gear dropped. I saw two pairs of aim pants, an aim blaster rifle, a willpower lightsaber, an aim autocannon, an aim chest, a strength light saber, a cunning hat and a strength chest piece. That does not seem to be based on group composition. If it had been, I should have seen only cunning gear drop. Am I correct?.
That's because it's broken right now and hasn't been fixed. It's either that or they only do that sort of loot system for tokens like Rakata drops and not some random orange/purple drop from bosses.

Still, that doesn't hold true only if gear drops based on group composition. That just means the drops that don't apply to any toon get greeded for companions. If someone really wants it for their companion, all they need to do is ask if it's okay and the group would most likely say "yes".

You could go back to my analogy and change the coins to 6-sided dice. I'm "1", you're "6", and everything else is up in the air. So, there's a chance that the roll won't benefit either person. That's still where the "equal chance" occurs and where you're obviously refusing to see or, for some reason, can't seem to acknowledge when you keep saying "equal chance".

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
03.20.2013 , 12:32 PM | #494
Quote: Originally Posted by cidbahamut View Post
I see the logic and value in it, but I disagree with the premise.

Basically you're saying that I will never be rewarded for contributing, I will only be allowed to acquire gear solely for the benefit of the group. I find that to be a flawed system. It effectively means that I am prevented from working towards achieving my own goals.
Um, that's a flawed statement. How will you "never be rewarded for contributing"? If you get gear for your main, that benefits the group during group play AND benefits you in solo play. So you're still able to achieve your goals. In fact, getting gear for your toon frees up using comms on yourself during planetary quests that you can now use to upgrade your companion. Sounds like, once again, it's "working towards achieving [your] own goals."

Seriously, how can you not see this. It's mind-boggling.

Elyssandra's Avatar


Elyssandra
03.20.2013 , 12:36 PM | #495
Quote: Originally Posted by RLWalker View Post
Precisely. You have already assigned meaning to the buttons based on the label text.
OK I'm willing to go out on a limb and guess that the buttons are labelled precisely for this reason - so we can assign meanings to them.
As opposed to having say a pink button and a blue button or two grey buttons with randomly changing hieroglyphs...

Why not take a time out and actually think about your position rather than just typing random contradictory stuff?
Quote: Originally Posted by RLWalker View Post
The "need" button should probably be re-labelled "want"
Quote: Originally Posted by RLWalker View Post
Forget about the names on the buttons.
Quote: Originally Posted by RLWalker View Post
if I see something I could use for whatever reason I hit need.
Quote: Originally Posted by RLWalker View Post
If you want something you should hit need.
Quote: Originally Posted by RLWalker View Post
I never said one should need indiscriminately.

shadowrouge's Avatar


shadowrouge
03.20.2013 , 12:41 PM | #496
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
I did not men to imply that the OP had no responsibility to try to set ground rules, or that the OP had no share of the blame. My only intent was to point out that the OP did not deserve the entire blame. Both sides need to shoulder their share of blame for the lack of communication. I have said the GROUP should establish rules before the run.
Then perhaps you should have worded it differently. Instead of saying " Its not Everyone's responsibility to inform" you should have said it IS every ones responsibility to inform.
Weekend Beta tester 11-11-11/ Thanksgiving tester 11-25-11
http://www.swtor.com/r/XydG2G

RLWalker's Avatar


RLWalker
03.20.2013 , 12:42 PM | #497
Quote: Originally Posted by Elyssandra View Post
OK I'm willing to go out on a limb and guess that the buttons are labelled precisely for this reason - so we can assign meanings to them.
As opposed to having say a pink button and a blue button or two grey buttons with randomly changing hieroglyphs...

Why not take a time out and actually think about your position rather than just typing random contradictory stuff?
I think you need to go back and read my posts again. I was proposing that people hitting need in cases where they want something will lead to more efficient loot distribution. Unfortunately some people could not get past the fact that need is written on the label, so I suggested that they pretend that there were no labels at all. Or if you wish, pink/blue or random hieroglyphics.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
03.20.2013 , 12:42 PM | #498
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
That's because it's broken right now and hasn't been fixed. It's either that or they only do that sort of loot system for tokens like Rakata drops and not some random orange/purple drop from bosses.

Still, that doesn't hold true only if gear drops based on group composition. That just means the drops that don't apply to any toon get greeded for companions. If someone really wants it for their companion, all they need to do is ask if it's okay and the group would most likely say "yes".

You could go back to my analogy and change the coins to 6-sided dice. I'm "1", you're "6", and everything else is up in the air. So, there's a chance that the roll won't benefit either person. That's still where the "equal chance" occurs and where you're obviously refusing to see or, for some reason, can't seem to acknowledge when you keep saying "equal chance".
But your argument of "the player already lost the roll when the piece of loot with another player's stats on it dropped" then becomes invalid. There cannot be a "first roll" to lose if the loot is not based on group composition. The marauder cannot win the "first roll" if the loot is not generated based on group composition, but in a totally random manner based on the boss's loot table. Therefore the only roll that matters is the need/greed roll and that is the one in which "social convention" denies or takes away from a player the option to roll need for a companion.

river_of_Gem's Avatar


river_of_Gem
03.20.2013 , 12:43 PM | #499
In congratulation that this thread reach page 50, i will tell a story ( i would sing if i can but i am a terrible singer )

We ran KUS HM today and got a Sage healer that keep rolled NEED on everything and said he need it for his companion ( i wonder if he's from this thread lol ) but we said nothing and move on to the end. After we down the final boss, when i was about to start a vote kick, the other dps was already start ones and bam, this ninja was kicked, so it seem i am not the only 1 don't like ninja in FP

After this run, i queued again for gigles and got an instant pop ( being a tank have it perk ) then we have this healer again ! This time i vote kick him right at start and tell everyone he's a ninja, so now he got kicked twice from HM FP and end up on ignore list of 7 ppl

For all ninja in this thread, keep on your good work, it really entertaint me

ps : in b4 story bro cool

cidbahamut's Avatar


cidbahamut
03.20.2013 , 12:46 PM | #500
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
Um, that's a flawed statement. How will you "never be rewarded for contributing"? If you get gear for your main, that benefits the group during group play AND benefits you in solo play. So you're still able to achieve your goals. In fact, getting gear for your toon frees up using comms on yourself during planetary quests that you can now use to upgrade your companion. Sounds like, once again, it's "working towards achieving [your] own goals."

Seriously, how can you not see this. It's mind-boggling.
The motivation is not to compensate me for my time and effort. I get gear, but only inasmuch as it directly benefits the group.
Instead of a scenario like: "Oh, you helped out so you get some loot",
we have the following: "Oh look, this specific piece of gear that will increase your DPS has dropped. This is what you can have regardless of whether or not it's what you actually wanted."

The whole thing is framed in specifics of gear and stats. I'd like a system that recognizes an individual's contributions and allows them to make their own judgements about what they'd like their compensation to be. If I value some sweet looking orange body piece for a companion over a marginal upgrade piece for my character, I should be able to make that judgement call without being scorned for it. The system in place as it is right now would consistently deny me access to that until literally no one else wanted it, rather than just letting the people who actually want the item to take a shot at it.

I concede the point regarding freeing up commendations for further kitting out yourself and companions. Gearing in one place frees up resources to gear up elsewhere. It's some consolation I suppose.