Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the communication something like...

 

We've sold over 2 MILLION copies!

 

We have over 1.7 MILLION subscribers!

 

Uh... we have something under a million subscribers.

 

We're taking the game free-to-play and, uh, we're not sharing subscriber numbers any more...

 

Doesn't that tell you something?

They did share subscriber #'s? I'll go look and find it for you. The # was 700k ish. But hey just say stuff. That's cool. As I said just because they hit that high of a subscriber count and then it plummets to the core people who are going to stick around does not make a game failing. It means it followed the same trend as every other game. Was it preferable to BW? Probably not. But the game wasn't failing. We can agree to disagree. As I'm already tired of the argument.

People who always say "fallacy" on these forums is hilarious because they keep trying to sound smart. Every MMO DOES. It's concrete fact. Would you like me to cite sources for you? Because I will. You can say lack luster performance all you want. But 700,000 subscribers is enough to keep a game going for a long time. Also all those games came out in a time when MMOs were a new thing and people gravitated toward them. New MMOs in the sense of SWTOR, Aion, GW2. They all share the same trend. And each will keep going until they decide otherwise. The gaming community gets bored, that's all it is. It's not a "fallacy" like you so claim.

They censor "********" , that's why "fallacy" gets used.

No, it's not fact that all MMO's rapidly bleed subscribers, just that most new MMO's do.

I agree with the more your play the more you should be rewarded. I don't agree with taking something that was accessible for everyone (gaining rep, collecting speeders, etc.) and putting it behind and incredibly expensive paywall. Would it be OK if they added Valor 101 and it required no PvP, just $250 up front? Would it be wrong for PvPers to be upset about that? Would it be about anything other than greed?

Bad comparison is bad.

Having a higher valor gives you access to better stats in game. So your argument is flawed.

One more point about entitlement -- I don't feel entitled to the items in these vendors. I would be perfectly happy if they never existed. I do feel rightly entitled to voice my opinion here -- not because of free speech or anything silly since it doesn't apply to a company, but because I pay for the game and BW provides forums for this sort of feedback. I do feel rightly entitled to want certain things for the game simply because I'm a human being and I get to want whatever I want, that's how it works

 

That's all I have to say on the topic!

Lolwhat? I never said that you have no right to speak. But I can tell you that I think you're reasoning for complaints is wrong. So not sure where you're going there. I believe that people have a right to complain. But do I want to hear someone complain that the sky is blue when it should be purple? No. It's your right, but don't think that I'm not going to tell you that you're being silly for arguing such things.

If every MMO goes f2p, where is my f2p in WoW/ WHAR?@?!?!

If you read... did you read the thread at all from this point on? I said WoW had a fan base built up over years and they came out in a time where MMOs were a new thing. They have a subscriber base too big to ever need to go f2p. The trend for new MMOs is f2p is a way to go that is profitable. And that seems to be the case for a lot of these f2p games. If SWTOR came out in 2004 and lasted till now, they would be in the same boat as WoW. Two differing time periods. Things evolve.

If it was 1 system then sure, but as it stands now they have different systems for different boxes. That rubs me the wrong way since its an obvious "Buy 5 now get 1 free collectible! But wait! THERES MORE! Buy another 5 in 2 months and get ANOTHER COLLECTABLE!"

Its like one of those bad infomercials you see at waytooearly AM

 

Want a loyalty system? Fine, no issue with it but dont create a system like this and pretend it to be a loyalty system.

Do you mean if it was one rep bar and only one rep bar forever? I guess. I said earlier that I'm not sure I'm a big fan of multiple rep bars for CM buyers, but that's not enough of a problem for me to stand up and yell about. Especially since I'm not going to level up the first rep bar. Are you telling me you were planning to max it out, but now you're upset because there could be multiple rep bars down the road?

If you read... did you read the thread at all from this point on? I said WoW had a fan base built up over years and they came out in a time where MMOs were a new thing. They have a subscriber base too big to ever need to go f2p. The trend for new MMOs is f2p is a way to go that is profitable. And that seems to be the case for a lot of these f2p games. If SWTOR came out in 2004 and lasted till now, they would be in the same boat as WoW. Two differing time periods. Things evolve.

According to posts in this thread, companies do whatever they can to get the maximum amount of money as they can from their customers. So, even though Blizzard is managing a successful subscriber-based game, shouldn't they a CM and a F2P feature like TOR?

Show me the quote were BW said rep was essential to the game.

They touted it like it was an awesome new integral mechanic to the game.

And now you're just arguing other things. The person I was originally arguing with tried to make a general statement:

 

Which is a bad assumption. They're assuming (like you) that every item listed in the patch notes is equal in resources spent to accomplish said patch note. That's flat out wrong and quantifying that way is a terrible way to base an assumption on.

 

And yeah, the could have easily put some of that gear into the VIP vendor, but that's a completely different argument. You should make a post that shows you're not happy that they're not updating the VIP vendor. This entire thread started with a CM rep bar... which is completely independent of what you're complaining about here. I could easily complain that anything that's fluff is taking away from working on content I like, such as new operations, but that's a silly argument. BW already stated that the CM team is not the development team so it's wrong to accuse them of putting all of their resources to the CM.

The people that design stuff for the CM are the same people who design stuff in general... they are known as designers. They are being put on duty to design stuff for the CM meanwhile maybe a small portion is on duty to design out of CM stuff (for drops, crafting or CE)

Actually I think its rather OT since my complaint is that there is a lot of effort put into the CM (inc the new Rep system) rather than equal value things like crafting, this proves to me that the CM is more important since its a bigger money making machine

They censor "********" , that's why "fallacy" gets used.

 

No, it's not fact that all MMO's rapidly bleed subscribers, just that most new MMO's do.

That was what I said wasn't it? All the MMOs that have recently came out have had that trend because there's nothing really new to them so the only people who stay are the people who like the IP.

They did share subscriber #'s? I'll go look and find it for you. The # was 700k ish. But hey just say stuff. That's cool. As I said just because they hit that high of a subscriber count and then it plummets to the core people who are going to stick around does not make a game failing. It means it followed the same trend as every other game. Was it preferable to BW? Probably not. But the game wasn't failing. We can agree to disagree. As I'm already tired of the argument.

Yes. They shared the over 2 million purchased. They also shared the over 1.7 million subscribers.

The very next quarter from the 1.7 million subscribers, they said between 500k and 1 million. And that was the last time they ever did or ever will share subscriber numbers. The 700k was one of many guesses people made, but EA never gave a solid number - just a range with a 100% variance / margin of error.

Then right after that, they said they were taking the game free-to-pay and that they'd never release subscriber numbers again.

Read the quarterly reports and/or the quarterly investor call recordings starting with the first one after December 2011.

According to posts in this thread, companies do whatever they can to get the maximum amount of money as they can from their customers. So, even though Blizzard is managing a successful subscriber-based game, shouldn't they a CM and a F2P feature like TOR?

If you played WoW you would know that they have a cash shop based in their website for fluff items in game. So they haven't adopted the entire F2P model but they have added F2P features. WoW remains with those #'s because they built it up through time. SWTOR will be there if they go the right direction with the game imo. But it takes time.

I still fail to see why are people mad at this.

Is there a single thing available from the new Rep vendors that WAS NOT in Cartel Market or Cartel Packs before? I did not see any.

In a way, this is maybe even better, as you can buy as many formerly-CM chestpieces (after reaching the reputation), without the need to pay Cartel Coins every time. Or maybe you are frustarated that Revan§s mask is not dropping from any of the packs and you do not have several million ingame credits to buy it? Now you can buy it from the stuff that drops from those Cartel Packs that yielded nothing for you...

They touted it like it was an awesome new integral mechanic to the game.

How many ingame hours have you devoted or do you expect to devote to grinding Voss reputation?

Do you mean if it was one rep bar and only one rep bar forever? I guess. I said earlier that I'm not sure I'm a big fan of multiple rep bars for CM buyers, but that's not enough of a problem for me to stand up and yell about. Especially since I'm not going to level up the first rep bar. Are you telling me you were planning to max it out, but now you're upset because there could be multiple rep bars down the road?

Yup and then make the Throphies BoU instead of BoP

This creates a viable GTN market for them, keeps (most) people happy and its better than the current situation.

I hate it but if they make it like this I can live with it

You earlier said people were entitled and screaming "Me me me", youre doing the same now "I disagree and my point of view is the only logical one WHY ARE YOU NOT AGREEING WITH ME?!"

Kinda selfish to imply that we arent allowed to stand up and yell, its our right as a consumer to vocally disagree

I wasnt planning to max it out, I wasnt planning on getting it at all unless it was on the GTN. Why am I upset? Because I dont like the way theyre doing business at the moment. I dont like how some people act irl towards others and I speak up about it there as well

How many ingame hours have you devoted or do you expect to devote to grinding Voss reputation?

None, dont care much personally for the items they offer. Whats your point?

They touted it like it was an awesome new integral mechanic to the game.

Please show me where it was "integral". It seemed pretty optional to me:

Do these things, get rep, get rewards. None of that seemed "integral". In fact, I will probably never have Voss maxed out... I'm pretty sure it wasn't integral. I'm pretty sure that if I didn't do any of these reputation things I would still be able to play this game, just fine. I'd still have mounts I could use, where armor with stats, pvp, complete missions, and fight bosses.

The people that design stuff for the CM are the same people who design stuff in general... they are known as designers. They are being put on duty to design stuff for the CM meanwhile maybe a small portion is on duty to design out of CM stuff (for drops, crafting or CE)

Um... you do know there's more than one designer, right? So if there's 5 guys who are on the CM team, and the number of non-CM devs didn't change, that means they haven't pulled any of those resources away. Now, if the money accrued from the CM made it possible to higher a few new devs, and even one of them went to the non-CM team, then you'd be wrong, wouldn't you? You're only right if they pulled non-CM devs away from non-CM stuff and never replaced them and, in some alternate universe, if there was no CM, that there would be more non-CM team. Way to grasp for straws there!

Actually I think its rather OT since my complaint is that there is a lot of effort put into the CM (inc the new Rep system) rather than equal value things like crafting, this proves to me that the CM is more important since its a bigger money making machine

A lot of thought? Lol, that's take an existing system (the rep bar) and implement it for the CM as well. Wow... that took a lot of time! ... or not.

Your proof is bad.

None, dont care much personally for the items they offer. Whats your point?

Then why do you care about THIS reputation? You're clearly not a completionist. Do you love the douchey looking gold crown of stupidity?

Nor can any one reputation be "integral" or "required" for you if you won't grind Voss.

Yes. They shared the over 2 million purchased. They also shared the over 1.7 million subscribers.

 

The very next quarter from the 1.7 million subscribers, they said between 500k and 1 million. And that was the last time they ever did or ever will share subscriber numbers. The 700k was one of many guesses people made, but EA never gave a solid number - just a range with a 100% variance / margin of error.

 

Then right after that, they said they were taking the game free-to-pay and that they'd never release subscriber numbers again.

 

Read the quarterly reports and/or the quarterly investor call recordings starting with the first one after December 2011.

I will go read them. I'll also find the articles I've read about the statistics I found. Maybe they aren't good sources? I don't know. But they had a subscriber base that was staying for the long haul. It might not of been the number they wanted, but they had the number to keep the game going. I don't believe WoW as well when it first came out had much more then what SWTOR did. I'll look into that too. Also at a point in time where EA stated they were putting micro trans. in all their games etc. SWTOR isn't above that. Even if they had 2 million subscribers we would of saw micro transactions in the game. (An assumption, but one I think is good to assume).

You earlier said people were entitled and screaming "Me me me", youre doing the same now "I disagree and my point of view is the only logical one WHY ARE YOU NOT AGREEING WITH ME?!"

Kinda selfish to imply that we arent allowed to stand up and yell, its our right as a consumer to vocally disagree

 

I wasnt planning to max it out, I wasnt planning on getting it at all unless it was on the GTN. Why am I upset? Because I dont like the way theyre doing business at the moment. I dont like how some people act irl towards others and I speak up about it there as well

1) Bad assumption. I'm arguing against it because I recognize that I don't have a right to everything in this game based on how I play it. I'm at Valor 80. I stopped really PvP'ing a while ago. I pretty much focus on alts and operations. I would be selfish to expect them to still reward me for PvP stuff like valor and PvP gear through alting and operations if I don't pvp anymore. That's an understanding that it's not all about me and I refuse to let others play that game of "me me me". You have a right to vocally disagree, but it doesn't make you right just because you're upset.

2) So you're upset because the people who want everything their way can't have it their way. Boo hoo.

I will go read them. I'll also find the articles I've read about the statistics I found. Maybe they aren't good sources? I don't know. But they had a subscriber base that was staying for the long haul. It might not of been the number they wanted, but they had the number to keep the game going. I don't believe WoW as well when it first came out had much more then what SWTOR did. I'll look into that too. Also at a point in time where EA stated they were putting micro trans. in all their games etc. SWTOR isn't above that. Even if they had 2 million subscribers we would of saw micro transactions in the game. (An assumption, but one I think is good to assume).

The fun thing about "articles" is that their authors make crap up and interpret events to their own worldviews. Don't believe me? Watch an MSNBC, CNN, and Fox newscast on the same subject and you'll swear you saw 3 different events covered.

The source is crucial. In this case, the source of the subscription numbers must be only EA.

The fun thing about WoW is that for the longest time, its subscriber base only increased. It never took a 50-70% decline, ever, in the entire game's history. This game did that within the first few months.

EA stated they were putting micro-transactions into all their games well after f2p was implemented in this one, which was well, well after it was announced for this game.

Back when they were announcing that they had 2 million sales and 1.7 million subscribers, they never once even hinted microtransactions would be part of the payment scheme. They said over and over again more content at a faster pace than you've ever seen in any MMO.

I will go read them. I'll also find the articles I've read about the statistics I found. Maybe they aren't good sources? I don't know. But they had a subscriber base that was staying for the long haul. It might not of been the number they wanted, but they had the number to keep the game going. I don't believe WoW as well when it first came out had much more then what SWTOR did. I'll look into that too. Also at a point in time where EA stated they were putting micro trans. in all their games etc. SWTOR isn't above that. Even if they had 2 million subscribers we would of saw micro transactions in the game. (An assumption, but one I think is good to assume).

'Keeping the game going' is not the hallmark of a successful game.

I can run my car on bald tires and second-hand parts and cheap gas and oil, and that'll keep the car going. But, it's not the sign of a well-maintained and well-operated vehicle.

The subs fell to a number that was 'sufficient' to stay afloat, but for how long? They certainly weren't gaining sufficient subs to replace the lost subs, that's for certain. When you're barely treading water, every small wave of disruption is a disaster.

I realize that some people are quite okay with having a substandard but PURE game, but most people simply aren't interested in the purity of 'subbed play' as opposed to F2P and micro-transactions.

Please show me where it was "integral". It seemed pretty optional to me:

Do these things, get rep, get rewards. None of that seemed "integral". In fact, I will probably never have Voss maxed out... I'm pretty sure it wasn't integral. I'm pretty sure that if I didn't do any of these reputation things I would still be able to play this game, just fine. I'd still have mounts I could use, where armor with stats, pvp, complete missions, and fight bosses.

Then why make such a big fuss? Its just as important as Legacy. Imagine if new Legacy perks were CM only

Um... you do know there's more than one designer, right? So if there's 5 guys who are on the CM team, and the number of non-CM devs didn't change, that means they haven't pulled any of those resources away. Now, if the money accrued from the CM made it possible to higher a few new devs, and even one of them went to the non-CM team, then you'd be wrong, wouldn't you? You're only right if they pulled non-CM devs away from non-CM stuff and never replaced them and, in some alternate universe, if there was no CM, that there would be more non-CM team. Way to grasp for straws there!

More than one?! Wow... never knew....

Devs =/= designer, that the first thing Ill say.

Secondly I never said they pulled away developers, I said the pulled away designers. And no, I wouldnt be wrong. If they hired 3 new devs and 2 went to the CM and 1 went to the non-CM it means that they are putting more priority on the CM, especially since it costs less to develop for the CM.

A lot of thought? Lol, that's take an existing system (the rep bar) and implement it for the CM as well. Wow... that took a lot of time! ... or not.

 

Your proof is bad.

Effort = thought? Thats nice honey, next time try not putting words in my mouth or at least try to make them the same.

Of course not a whole lot of thought went in "Euh... how can we make money? Oh by appealing to the addicts and completionists and charging them for it!"

The effort went in to make sure they designed a system to maximize profits

Then why do you care about THIS reputation? You're clearly not a completionist. Do you love the douchey looking gold crown of stupidity?

 

Nor can any one reputation be "integral" or "required" for you if you won't grind Voss.

Wat? o.O

Just because I dont care about the Voss rep or because Im not a completionist Im not allowed to care about this?

BW touted it as an awesome new system etcetc just like Legacy

So, if the CM profits result in 3 new designers, two for the CM market and one for everything else...

..then isn't 'everything else' STILL coming out ahead?

1) Bad assumption. I'm arguing against it because I recognize that I don't have a right to everything in this game based on how I play it. I'm at Valor 80. I stopped really PvP'ing a while ago. I pretty much focus on alts and operations. I would be selfish to expect them to still reward me for PvP stuff like valor and PvP gear through alting and operations if I don't pvp anymore. That's an understanding that it's not all about me and I refuse to let others play that game of "me me me". You have a right to vocally disagree, but it doesn't make you right just because you're upset.

 

2) So you're upset because the people who want everything their way can't have it their way. Boo hoo.

How I feel arguing with you and Darth_THC

Note: I feel like Fry

That was what I said wasn't it? All the MMOs that have recently came out have had that trend because there's nothing really new to them so the only people who stay are the people who like the IP.

I can agree with you completely on that point.