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Kaggath Suggestions...


Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.10.2013 , 03:41 PM | #171
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Hmmm, but it eliminates the possibility of a ground battle, and a Caedus' fleet is at somewhat a disadvantage compared to Vader's given the lack of a powerful capital ship. (While Malgus could have the Ascendant Spear.) But it is a possibility.

P.S. Still need a matchup for the Ohnaka Gang, Nightsisters are no longer an option.
Caedus will have Galactic Alliance troops as his ground forces, and there's plenty of technical specs on the vehicles and air support they use.

And I mentioned the Anakin Solo in my first post about Caedus, it's more than adequate for a powerful flagship. And the Endurance class fleet carriers give him a massive edge over Vader in starfighter deployment.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
Kaggath Brawl: Round One Round Two
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Bird_of_Thunder's Avatar


Bird_of_Thunder
03.10.2013 , 03:56 PM | #172
i got one!

Darth Maul's Shadow Collective.


its like a crime empire ruled by Sith.
Lord Ravvok
Annihilation Marauder
<Ebon Hawk, U.S>

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.10.2013 , 04:02 PM | #173
Quote: Originally Posted by Bird_of_Thunder View Post
i got one!

Darth Maul's Shadow Collective.


its like a crime empire ruled by Sith.
Too tough for the Ohnaka Gang, but definitely a group I'd like to include...

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
03.11.2013 , 02:50 PM | #174
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Not to mention that Vader and Obi-Wan are almost identical as personal combatants on top of that.

What about Darth Caedus? His flagship, the Anakin Solo would make a good matchup for the Executor. Other elements from the Galactic Alliance Navy could make up the rest of Caedus' fleet (they're MC80 cruisers, Endurance fleet carriers, and Nebula-class Star Destroyers for the most part).

Throw in Garen Malek as Vader's apprentice and Ben Skywalker as Caedus' and this could get interesting.

Caedus also has the Galactic Alliance Guard, his personal secret police and intelligence network. Darth Vader has his probe droids, his skills as a fighter pilot, etc.

For the sake of clarity, perhaps Vader should be assessed at the arguable peak of his power, sometime around the time of Empire Strikes Back.
You'd have to throw Tahri into this as Caedus' apprentice, remember Ben Skywalker quit being loyal to Jacen at the same instant that Jacen killed Mara Jade Skywalker and became Caedus.

Ben was never really Caedus' apprentice, and only seemed that would happen in 1 book (Inferno) and if it wasn't for a complete fluke Ben actually would have ran the fledgling sith lord through the back with his lightsaber...

Plus you'd have to throw in the factors of Luke Skywalker and such, because Ben and Jacen were both grandchildren of Darth Vader...

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.11.2013 , 03:46 PM | #175
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
You'd have to throw Tahri into this as Caedus' apprentice, remember Ben Skywalker quit being loyal to Jacen at the same instant that Jacen killed Mara Jade Skywalker and became Caedus.

Ben was never really Caedus' apprentice, and only seemed that would happen in 1 book (Inferno) and if it wasn't for a complete fluke Ben actually would have ran the fledgling sith lord through the back with his lightsaber...

Plus you'd have to throw in the factors of Luke Skywalker and such, because Ben and Jacen were both grandchildren of Darth Vader...
Ben Skywalker and Galen Marek would make a better match up, though. Tahiri is a loser, so that would be boring. If we're counting her as Jacen's apprentice, then just drop both of them, in accordance with the "no outside powers" concept.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
Kaggath Brawl: Round One Round Two
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.11.2013 , 06:39 PM | #176
As a little bit of an aside, and something of a commentary on the Kaggath in general.

There was an interesting moment in season one of the Game of Thrones TV series, where Cersei confronts Littlefinger with several of her guardsmen. Littlefinger plays something of a shadow game, manipulating people and trying to work behind the scenes. At the end of the their conversation, Littlefinger says, "Information is power" as he threatens to blackmail Cersei. Her response is to command her guards, "Seize him". They do, and she says, "Cut his throat." One guardsman draws his dagger and is reaching for Littlefinger's throat when Cersei stops him, saying "No, wait, I've changed my mind. Release him."

Littlefinger looks terrified, and Cersei reminds him that "Power is power."

What I'm getting at here is that I've noticed, over the course of the Kaggath, is that many people believe that characters like Xizor, G0-T0, and other criminal elements can simply spend and extort their way out of every problem. However, there is a vast difference between the power of crime bosses and kings.

Crime bosses must move entirely in the shadows, and while this at first seems like a strength, it is actually a significant weakness. A shrewd enemy can also dance in the shadows with them, but at the same time wield power openly. The ability to command a fleet, an army, the loyalty of professional soldiers, far exceeds to ability to purchase mercenaries and extort your rivals.

Characters like Darth Vader, or Traya, or Revan all have a duality of power. They employ skilled assassins and spies, but also wield raw authority. They have fleets and soldiers who can move without fear of discovery, and this is a tremendous advantage.

When considering a power base for a Kaggath, remember that it's not just what someone controls, but how they control it. A criminal who survives by hiding in the shadows is always living in the fear that someone will shine a light one them, betray them when they least expect it. A Sith Lord can be betrayed, but such things are not always fatal. They are individually powerful in addition to commanding open authority.

In my opinion, we should probably separate the Kaggath into tiers. The top tier would be characters with access to military, economic, and political power (spies/intelligence networks can also be considered political in nature). Anyone with only two of those pillars should probably only be paired against other people who fall into this "second tier".

Within each tier, then, considerations of the combatants individual skills become more important than the raw availability of resources. Generalship, power in the Force, dueling skills, unique technologies or strategies, etc. will become far more important considerations than simply spending your opponent into oblivion or throwing waves of assassins at them. It would force more complex scenarios to evolve as each combatant plays to their strengths and tries to neutralize their opponent's advantages, resulting in a more interesting Kaggath.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
Kaggath Brawl: Round One Round Two
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
03.11.2013 , 07:05 PM | #177
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Ben Skywalker and Galen Marek would make a better match up, though. Tahiri is a loser, so that would be boring. If we're counting her as Jacen's apprentice, then just drop both of them, in accordance with the "no outside powers" concept.
If we're having Caedus using Ben Skywalker as an apprentice, then in all honesty I'm not sure whose side either apprentice would be on.

For starters Ben and Caedus are both Vader's grandkids (he is more apt to figure out Ben is his grandson than Caedus). Second Caedus killed Ben's mother, and took a few potshots at Luke as well.

I really don't see Vader letting Galen bump off Ben, I mean look at how Vader kept trying to capture Luke instead of killing him.

So the first thing that's likely to happen is Ben would defect to Vader's side or decide to just strike out on his own... In the former Vader would have two "apprentices" competing over the who gets to be apprentice, while Vader goes to bump off Caedus.

Sorry but I don't think Jacen could take on Darth Vader, Galen Marek, and Ben Skywalker at the same time. If you're going to give Caedus an apprentice, at least give him one that wouldn't jump ship or try to run him through at the first opportunity...

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.11.2013 , 07:39 PM | #178
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Sorry but I don't think Jacen could take on Darth Vader, Galen Marek, and Ben Skywalker at the same time. If you're going to give Caedus an apprentice, at least give him one that wouldn't jump ship or try to run him through at the first opportunity...
This is purely to make things interesting. Galen Marek would turn on Vader immediately as well, he hates Vader and the entire plot of the tFU is him seeking revenge on Vader (who, you know, killed his father)

Since this is a fantasy comparison, and most Kaggath combatants have no real reason to fight each other anyways (they're mostly from different time periods anyways) it keeps things very close to have a powerful apprentice for each combatant. Ben and Galen are each distinct enough from their masters to complement them in intriguing ways while still being able to compete in the fight without being hopelessly outclassed the way Tahiri would.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
Kaggath Brawl: Round One Round Two
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
03.11.2013 , 08:01 PM | #179
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
This is purely to make things interesting. Galen Marek would turn on Vader immediately as well, he hates Vader and the entire plot of the tFU is him seeking revenge on Vader (who, you know, killed his father)

Since this is a fantasy comparison, and most Kaggath combatants have no real reason to fight each other anyways (they're mostly from different time periods anyways) it keeps things very close to have a powerful apprentice for each combatant. Ben and Galen are each distinct enough from their masters to complement them in intriguing ways while still being able to compete in the fight without being hopelessly outclassed the way Tahiri would.
You left out the fact the Kaggath could be a draw where Vader and Jacen kill each other, while the apprentices are both still alive at the end of it.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.12.2013 , 06:35 AM | #180
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
You left out the fact the Kaggath could be a draw where Vader and Jacen kill each other, while the apprentices are both still alive at the end of it.
Are we discussing the outcome of this suggestion already? Like I said, it's going to be interesting.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
Kaggath Brawl: Round One Round Two
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell